26" 27.5" and 29" Wheels and mtb's.

[NinjaManiak]

Guys have been winning the Argus on big wheeled bikes for 20+ years,

so for all you know they were riding up Suikerbossie.

[Eldron]

not knocking them... I have a full carbon Schwinn peloton at home. Okay, hasn't seen any action since the Argus last year (valve blew after inflating it for last saturday's ride) but I still dig it.

 

Otherwise, I find I'm more of a Mountain Goat than a roadie. Always have been.

 

And - no can do, mate - I've just bought a REBA RLT, new fully enclosed cable kit, shifters, cassette, chain and bomb-tool for the bike, plus 2 lenses and a flash for the 450d I have at home.

 

Simon & Lance @ Epic will just have to get used to me drooling over the frames for a while longer...

 

I come from a roadie background and still enjoy the rolling chess match that is a road race. Mtb is way more fun but a bit "domkrag" - there isn't a lot of strategy other than ride at your lactic threshold for the duration of the race.

 

Ahhhh retail therapy - it rocks.

 

Owning new stuff always makes me feel good.

[Kiwi]

Intense say they will probably run the 29er 951 DH prototype at some races this year. I read some where that Stickman or Jeff Steber said it had been faster at some courses in testing than the 26er...

 

http://www.vitalmtb.com/features/One-Year-Later-Intense-2951-29er-DH-Prototype,112

[Eldron]

Actually, this could be proven scientifically. A quick google shows how much data the is available on the actual physics of the bicycle. Take a quick look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_dynamics

 

Your own opinion is exactly what unscientific is. Unless there was a sizable test subject group, riding the exact same lines, and an average was derived from this. Even in this case, it would only show that one bike is faster than the other. It wouldn't say WHY. Thats up to formulas and physics, some of which is complex, but believe me, very quantifiable. If we can put a person on the moon, I can assure you it's very possible to work out the exact physics and benefits of each design. A lot of your so called proof that a 29er is better, might be from confirmation bias. Look that one up.

 

 

 

 

Exactly what I was thinking. Newton's laws should be kept in mind when deriving benefits from the 29er. There are many constants involved. Same rider, finite amount of energy, gravity, friction etc.

 

I'd want to see some science before I'd shell out for a new bike. Maybe the reason there is no conclusive test is that ultimately, these guys wnt to sell bikes. They, like us, have families to feed. Perhaps the science would actually reveal that the benefits (if any) are not worth the money.

 

Each to their own though. Perhaps Powerband is fronting the 29er craze?

 

Easy there big fellow - I used the words "my opinion" many many times when stating my preference for 29er so go easy on the "your so called proof" style statements. I proved nothing - I simply said I prefer the 29er and gave a few examples of why in my OPINION it's faster.

 

The problem I have with John's statement is this part: "Diversity of choice is great, so if you love your 29er, ride it and be happy. But don’t try to say that it’s technically superior – race results and physics say otherwise.”

 

He tries to get all pseudo sciencey with phrases like "angular momentum" then says that race results prove otherwise - ummmm how exactly are race results technical proof that 26er are better?

 

The wikipedia site you mentioned doesn't even scratch the surface of proving which bike is better.

 

Here are some inputs that affect the outcome of the 26 versus 29 maths:

Air volume - generally 29ers have more but you can get a skinny 29er tyre that will hold less air than a fat 26er tyre so owning a 29er with skinny tyres can be either better or worse than owning 26er depending on tyre choice.

Air volume affects anguler momentum - or does it? We don't know.

Bigger wheels affect angular momentum - or not as John states although I've found that riding my 16" bike over a brick makes it come to a standstill but my 29er rolls over it so John is wrong. Or is he because fork rake, travel length, head angle, fork set back, positive air pressure, negative air pressure, rider weight, speed, tyre width, tyre type, tyre pressure, bicycle geometry all affect angular momentum.

 

So if you could pop that all into a neat equation I'd appreciate it.

 

If you start getting all sciencey about which bike is better you'll have analysis paralysis in no time.

 

About the only way you can adequately measure the difference is two have two bikes built by the same company using the same tubing, groupsets, finishing kit and then have thousands of different riders test them over exactly the same course....

 

Or would it?

 

What geometry would you use? 26er or 29er geomtery? So maybe the wheels don't make a difference it's in the geometry.

 

How about the course? Is it flat? Rocky? XC? Marathon? Muddy?

 

How about the rider? Should you use only short, medium or tall? Perhaps 4 subgroups? What about power? Do you only have rider that prefer can produce more than 300w? Ok 4 height sub groups with 3 power sub sub groups. What about pedalling speed? Fast versus sow? Ok so 4 height sub groups, each with 3 power sub sub groups each with 3 pedalling speed sub sub sub groups.... Now throw in professionals versus amateurs, beginners, fat guys, thing guys, guys with high BMI, ladies, children...

 

You see where I'm going with this?

 

All we'll ever have is opinion.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Eldron

[Eldron]

One more question: how do you know that your 26" is the fastest wheel size?

 

As far as I know the 26" wheel became the mtb standard purely because that is all that was available when mountain bikes were first "invented".

 

So science was never involved in the creation of the 26" but you're happy to stick with your 26 because sceince hasn't proven that a 29" wheel is faster than your unscientific 26 wheel?

 

Doesn't make too much sense to me - just because 26" are the norm doesn't make them right. Science hasn't proven anything.

 

My advice? Ride a 29er for a few weeks - my Niner Air 9 (Large) will be available in a week or two - you're welcome to do some long rides with me. Then you can decided which is better.

[Guest]

sigh.

 

"There will never be a scientific way to prove if a 29er or 26er is faster." - in LCD terms then. This is not true. It IS scientifically provable. Maybe you will "have analysis paralysis in no time". Doesn't mean it's not doable.

 

No point in going further.

[mtbvip]

All I hear is blah blah blah *buy more bikes you stoopid cyclists* blah blah blah

Specialized is still building 26" bikes, definitely more than 29" bikes. A dual sus 26" costs more than equavalent 29" HT. The argument that it is all marketing tricks to sell more bikes doesn't make any sense.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

I come from a roadie background and still enjoy the rolling chess match that is a road race. Mtb is way more fun but a bit "domkrag" - there isn't a lot of strategy other than ride at your lactic threshold for the duration of the race.

 

Ahhhh retail therapy - it rocks.

 

Owning new stuff always makes me feel good.

 

Yep, retail therapy is good. Credit card hangover is bad! Still got my RA & investments going strong though, and biggest credit card hangover of all is just around the corner - the honeymoon.

 

As for the 26" vs 29" debate. The bikes offer different solutions to the same problem. One variation of the 26" will be more versatile in certain instances than the equivalent 26", and vice versa. But that doesn't make blanket statements like "29ers are better" factually correct. If we took emotion & experience out of it, and had all the emperical data to hand, then there could be a definitive result, where differences between the 2 would be WITHIN CERTAIN AREAS of the test. Even then, it would be a case of one of the bikes being better in more areas than the other. To say that one is better than the other would, in that case, be a percentages game, and even then the other option would be better for the exception. There is no hard and fast rule.

 

If one is looking for a comparison, it is much like the 2.0l naturally aspirated engine vs the 1.4 turbocharged. Much the same in terms of output, but very different ways of going about it.

 

At the end of the day, it WILL come down to user experience and opinion when determining which is "better" for the user themselves. Either that, or one standard shall emerge victorious and one would only be able to buy a 26" or 29" by way of building it from separate parts, due to the unavailability of the phased out selection within the LBS environment.

 

As many have said - there are FACTUAL details which may sway one person more than the other (the way the wheel rolls for one, the extra weight for another) but in the end it will be the way that the bike feels that will determine preference.

 

All others who claim they bought one "because it is better" are just jumping on the bandwagon, and do not know why they bought one other than that's what they were sold.

[Eldron]

sigh.

 

"There will never be a scientific way to prove if a 29er or 26er is faster." - in LCD terms then. This is not true. It IS scientifically provable. Maybe you will "have analysis paralysis in no time". Doesn't mean it's not doable.

 

No point in going further.

 

Excellent news! Please present us with the facts.

 

I for one am waiting with baited breath.

 

While you're at it can you please solve the following problems that have been keeping me up lately:

Which is better Shimano, Campy or SRAM?

Hard tail, Soft tail or DS?

Carbon, Steel or Alu?

Is 90rpm really the best cadence?

[Kiwi]

Since these articles were written the 2010 US Short and Long Course XC Pro Champs (Specialized FS 29er), Trans Alps (Bulls carbon 29er HT) and a host of other events like the Trans Rockies (Kona Hei Hei 29er and Big Kahuna29er HT) have all been won on 29ers. Conrad ran the FS 29er all the time from the moment the carbon came along, before that he seemed to train on the alloy29er but race a carbon 26er FS. As many of you know he has a dedicated 29erTwitter page. And we mustn’t forget that one of the smallest woman in Pro MTB racing, Willow at 5'2" finished third over all in the world cup on 29ers,there's a great pic from Austria I think it was in What Mountain Bike where the girls in front of and behind her were porting on a really rocky section and she was passing them riding - she was the only one on a 29er.

 

 

 

http://singletrack.c...6-hardtail_1904

 

 

 

http://velonews.comp...re-faster_97597

 

 

 

You could say it's marketing but we only need to look A Burry's racing in 2010, he either road a FS 26er or a HT 29er depending on the course. The results sheet is what matters. Suasser has tested the 29er on many occasions and if you look at the videos on the Specialized site you will often see a 29er in his pit but he prefers the FS 26er

 

 

 

I ride a 29er, either SS, FS or HT but I also ride a 26er long travel HT and an XC 26er HT and will have a FS 26er XC on hand later in the year.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Kiwi

[Bennie Dikwiel]

I believe the 34" is gonna be even quicker, but only if you run it on 11 speed cassettes, wear holograms and drink 29GI energy drinks.

[Eldron]

Since these articles were written the US Short and Long Course XC Pro Champs (Specialized FS 29er), Trans Alps (Bulls) and a host of other events like the Trans Rockies (Kona Hei Hei 29er and Big Kahuna29er HT) have all been won on 29ers. Conrad ran the FS 29er all the time from the moment the carbon came along, before that he seemed to train on the alloy29er but race a carbon 26er FS. As many of you know he has a dedicated 29erTwitter page. And we mustn’t forget that one of the smallest woman in Pro MTB racing, Willow at 5'2" finished third over all in the world cup on 29ers,there's a great pic from Austria I think it was in What Mountain Bike where the girls in front of and behind her were porting on a really rocky section and shewas passing them riding - she was the only one on a 29er.

 

 

 

http://singletrack.c...6-hardtail_1904

 

 

 

http://velonews.comp...re-faster_97597

 

 

 

You could say it's marketing but we only need tolook A Burry's racing this year, he either road a FS 26er or a FT 29erdepending on the course. The results sheet is what matters. Suasser has testedthe 29er on many occasions and if you look at the videos on the Specializedsite you will often see a 29er in his pit but he prefers the FS 26er

 

 

 

I ride a 29er, either SS, FS or HT but I also ride a 26er long travel HT and an XC 26er.

 

29er uptake is quite country specific too - the US have embraced 29ers fully, in the UK the 26FS still reigns supreme - in SA the older okes seems to have embraced them - I see more 29er in the vets bunch than in the elites and juniors.

 

There were still banned in competition in Germany until about 18 months ago (I think - or was that an urban legend)?

[Kiwi]

Yeap, the German MTB Fed only allowed 29ers to start racing not so long ago. I think there's still some shiznik happening in Belgium trying to ban cyclo cross bikes from XC racing, haven't heard much about that lately though.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Kiwi

[Christie]

If 29er mtbs never came along, sales would have been less. Who knows - there are perhaps some small 1% advantage, over 1000 samples. Maybe. But the fact is that the bike industry (incl. Kiwi) will try its utmost to convince you that your 26er is outdated. If every person who owns a 26er buys a 29er, they score big. For me, this is the bottom line. Then, 5 years from now, they will come up with something else - perhaps a 25er, or a 31er, which would mean all 29ers has to be replaced...

[Kiwi]

Hi Christie,

 

I don't think you have been on our site lately? We have 26 HT frames good enough to race competitively for R850 each! We also have FS XC 26er frames (sold out and more coming) for R6500. Let alone our range of steel 26er AM frames. I don't believe any one bike type is perfect for every discipline but 29ers do have a lot going for them.

[Danger Dassie]

I predict that there shall be a break away of radicals who shall reintroduce the penny farthing ... 26 rear, 29 front!