Best performing suspesion design

[North Shore]

Both my Spez have fox only shocks, with the rear a fox and spez colab. I respect your experience, but I completely disagree. Yeah seems very lame of spez to pull out, even if it's not a very objective method of testing (as you yourself are timing, riding and reviewing). All the pro reviews I've ever read of the stumpies and epics were nothing but positive (What Mountain Bike Magazine, bikeradar etc http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/bikes/mountain/product/review-specialized-stumpjumper-fsr-evo-comp-12-45262) Not one review below 4/5 stars.

 

Amped to hear your views on the 26 vs 29er debate as I've just jumped to the 29er full suss and although mostly happy find myself missing that slightly hair-raising twitchy and schizophrenic nature of the 26er, is it just time till I'm fully adjusted?

[North Shore]

http://www.sicklines.com/reviews/specialized-stumpjumper-fsr-expert-evo/review-specialized-stumpjumper-fsr-expert-evo/

So every single reviewer I've read completely disagrees with you. I think you need to re-ride the new generation. Flying down to CT this weekend will bring my stumpie and maybe you can thrash it a bit at tokai.

[Iwan Kemp]

even if it's not a very objective method of testing (as you yourself are timing, riding and reviewing).

 

Spez / Ibis timing was done by Spez. Most of the other stuff is done by myself yeah, but have a look at the Mobii. GPS timing like you won't believe. Used in motorsport for the most accurate timing data. No cheating there.

[North Shore]

http://www.dirtragmag.com/webrag/first-look-2012-specialized-stumpjumper

QED

[(Deon)]

Spez has been asked for a follow-up test. Rep agreed only to pull out at the last second. Saying the tests are "inconclusive" and of no use to them. Scared much? Also, ask yourself how come they need to tweak the bike EVERY year. If you don't trust me, have a look online at pro reviews. Spez bikes with fox Suspension always get better reviews than the ones with Spez' own stuff.

 

This I have seen for myself. The Enduro with Spesh components needed 3 new forks, and 2 new Shocks in it's first year, and even with the last Carbon fork, the front still felt dead.

 

Was quite a step out going into their own suspension manufacturing.. a case of biting off too much, too soon.

[Iwan Kemp]

http://www.sicklines...fsr-expert-evo/

So every single reviewer I've read completely disagrees with you. I think you need to re-ride the new generation. Flying down to CT this weekend will bring my stumpie and maybe you can thrash it a bit at tokai.

 

I agree 100%. BUT, no Brain, no Spez fork or shock. So kinda got nothing to do with reviewing of the Brain. And, yeah, I've ridden the new Evo. It's one mighty fine bike. Enduro Evo is scary good.

[Iwan Kemp]

This I have seen for myself. The Enduro with Spesh components needed 3 new forks, and 2 new Shocks in it's first year, and even with the last Carbon fork, the front still felt dead.

 

Was quite a step out going into their own suspension manufacturing.. a case of biting off too much, too soon.

 

Have seen one guy go through six shocks in four months on his Epic. There are threads dedicated to people complaining about Spez forks and shocks. It is a lot better than a couple of years ago. Bit not near Fox or Rockshox. If I remember correct Spez warranty on suspension was upped to 5 years to keep people happy.

 

But hey, again, this is no bash Specialized thread. We have Raleigh for that!

[North Shore]

OK so it is just the brain component you have a problem with? Not the FSR horst link they use, cause that's kinda what I've been getting at. You can tune out the brain to be much less sensitive or just go for the plain FSR model. Point goes back to which brain have you tested? They have tweaked them A LOT since 2008, much quicker engagement, smoother etc (you claim that yearly tweaks are a bad thing, but how can that be if you haven't tested the latest ones?). Aside from the fact that it is a pretty unique system to specialized and I can't think of any other suspension design, what is wrong with them tweaking it year to year to iron out first gen problems?

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

OK so it is just the brain component you have a problem with? Not the FSR horst link they use, cause that's kinda what I've been getting at. You can tune out the brain to be much less sensitive or just go for the plain FSR model. Point goes back to which brain have you tested? They have tweaked them A LOT since 2008, much quicker engagement, smoother etc (you claim that yearly tweaks are a bad thing, but how can that be if you haven't tested the latest ones?). Aside from the fact that it is a pretty unique system to specialized and I can't think of any other suspension design, what is wrong with them tweaking it year to year to iron out first gen problems?

 

NS, the poll specifically indicates FSR with Brain. As a combination, Crow is saying that it's not the best by a long shot.

 

Straight FSR, however, is not the target of Crow's ire.

Edited April 3, 2012 by cptmayhem

[(Deon)]

This I have seen for myself. The Enduro with Spesh components needed 3 new forks, and 2 new Shocks in it's first year, and even with the last Carbon fork, the front still felt dead.

 

Was quite a step out going into their own suspension manufacturing.. a case of biting off too much, too soon.

 

Sorry, this was a bit of topic. It is not about the components..

 

But looks like FSR is gaining ground... Here comes the big S on the outside.

[Iwan Kemp]

http://www.sicklines...fsr-expert-evo/

So every single reviewer I've read completely disagrees with you. I think you need to re-ride the new generation. Flying down to CT this weekend will bring my stumpie and maybe you can thrash it a bit at tokai.

Cool. We're there on Fri at 9 to build. Will be shovaling around snake eyes.

 

Amped to hear your views on the 26 vs 29er debate as I've just jumped to the 29er full suss and although mostly happy find myself missing that slightly hair-raising twitchy and schizophrenic nature of the 26er, is it just time till I'm fully adjusted?

Takes some time to get used to it. Have to change your usual cockpit setup to get the "snap" back. But what I find lots of people forget or don't know is that they like "something" in a bike's handling. Some like a bike to be a bit twitchy, others don't. And we have to bare in mind that certain bikes will give you the feel you like, others won't. Doesn't necessarily make the one good and the other bad. That's just the way it is.

 

Unfortunately we don't have demo centers to spend days to find the right bike. So it's a game of hope and pray you stumble upon The One. Couple of mates and I used to buy tires together. Each would buy two tires and then we would chop and change till we got a good idea of what works. But even then it wasn't always unanimous.

[North Shore]

Sweet, I land at 3 on Friday, maybe catch you there.

Vis a vis objectivity of your timed testing : how do you account for rider fatigue, rider bias, new ride excitement etc? I don't see how any of this could be objective unless it were an average over multiple days with a visor so you couldn't tell which bike you were riding (excuse the scientist within but this simply cannot be an objective comparison).

[Iwan Kemp]

... (you claim that yearly tweaks are a bad thing, but how can that be if you haven't tested the latest ones?). Aside from the fact that it is a pretty unique system to specialized and I can't think of any other suspension design, what is wrong with them tweaking it year to year to iron out first gen problems?

 

Not claiming that. Evolution, change and updates are great. I'm only asking that you give some thought to why that is in this case. Dig a little deeper. And forgive me the Mr Big Shot comment, but when you spend time with the guys on the inside you know a little more.

 

Since 2007 I have ridden every single variation of Brain. Not a fan. But then again take that, blend it with what I said about not every likes the same thing and maybe we're down to it's just me.

 

That's where timing comes in for me. When I first started this I was marketed to believe Spez was the bike to have. All duals bar the Epic have always done it for me in the looks department. I'm a fan of a swoopy TT / DT. So I went into the first tests thinking things will be close. It's good that they keep updating the Brain, but after all these years that only bring them closer to where Fox and RockShox has been all along.

 

And not ALL updates / upgrades are good. Ask Fox about their FIT cartridge on their 36 line. Two years down the line and they are still trying to get it to work like it should.

[Iwan Kemp]

Sweet, I land at 3 on Friday, maybe catch you there.

Vis a vis objectivity of your timed testing : how do you account for rider fatigue, rider bias, new ride excitement etc? I don't see how any of this could be objective unless it were an average over multiple days with a visor so you couldn't tell which bike you were riding (excuse the scientist within but this simply cannot be an objective comparison).

 

In the case of the Spez test:

 

Three riders were used. Each guy rode both bikes back to back on the same day, using the same tires and wheels. To take out things like fatigue and weather we always use a short loop (5-8) of varying nature. Like Majik or Canary back in the day when it wasn't Mars. Smooth climbs, rough climbs, smooth flowy single track, loose rocky single track, tight and twisty single track.

 

Bike will get set up to the tee for each on the day before his runs so we show up ready to go. Runs will get timed for each section and then worked back to a % difference. Doesn't help to go purely on minutes and seconds difference as some guys are faster riders than others. This entire test was done on three separate days by each guy.

 

Two other riders are the same length as me and both ride the same size bike which helps. One guy doesn't care what freaking bike he rides as long as he gets to shred the trails. Other guy into bikes, but not a bike geek by a long shot. Both of them ride stock of the shelve bikes so riding any other bike is exciting enough.

 

Timing is always done with a lot of detail and care. Suspension setup less so cause you don't need a stopwatch to tell you it's getting better. But again, those who know Tokai will know that Snake Eyes is a very short section. You can do that over and over and over till your lungs drop out.

 

Now, that I have a full time job I get less time to these kinda rides. Don't have the luxury of pulling into a trail with a van full of bikes or getting to spend a week in Harkerville riding all sorts of bikes. Plus "standards" are making things more difficult. Couple of years ago a bike would be 3x9. That's it. Now you have to make a plan to get two bikes to have the same drivetrain to at least have THAT consistent. Then it's axles and steerers and all kinds of other stuff one has to consider.

[(Deon)]

I've have a bit of a purist view on suspension designs.

 

To me initially, it never made any sense why a manufacturer would fit a pedalling platform to their design or add a component like the painted red Equilink etc... These items gave me the impression of it being a last minute amendment to improve the bike performance because of a design that was lacking in certain areas. Not like the floating BB in GT/Mongoose, which was designed for the reason to isolate the bob and feedback from the outset, but more like discovering that the design did not offer pedalling efficiency, so to compensate, the Propedal/SPV/Equilink was specced to resist the unwanted forces. So much so, that switching off the propedal makes riding uphill without ones knees touching their ears, a challenge.

 

While many designs make up mountain bikes, how many would have died an early death if licensing was free? If Felt (for example) was allowed to use another design offering better stability, would they still be using the Equilink? It is surely economics dictating the continued use - until they find a system that works better.

 

It has been said in many magazines/reviews etc, that designs like DW naturally resist bob so well that Giant were careful not to infringe rights when developing Maestro, which was rooted from DW. Propedal/SPV is fitted to these bikes add performance but in all rights, the bike could actually perform just as well without it.

 

My knowledge is a bit limited so I may have used examples which I think are relevant, I am sure there are other systems which compare.. but my point is bold.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Pain or Shine

[Iwan Kemp]

[Man, you really are going to make me type today!]

 

For most of these timed tests I would always ask the riders impression first before looking discussing the timing. We would also look at things like heart rate and power (where possible) to look at the effort put in as sometimes you do get psyched up cause BIKE XYZ feels faster.