702 this morning about cycling vs motorists

[Singing_Indurain]

Maybe we need a proper war so we can get our priorities in order again.

 

Where's the 'Nutter' emoticon?

[Andrew_ew]

The problem is that cyclists are always bemoaning the fact that they're entitled to the road and need to be treated like any other road-going vehicle. Well, then you have to behave like any other motorcar too. If you're doing 20 or even 30km/h on an 80km/h stretch of road, then you are obstructing traffic.

 

I have personally seen a large pretoria-east cycling shop's training group take over an entire lane on a 80-100km/h stretch of road, usually with a string of cars being held up behind them. We regularly travel down this road with our towing vehicle and fully laden horsebox and have become stuck behind this group ride on more than one occasion. The road is narrow and twisty and overtaking, especially with live animals in our trailer is not an option. Politely hooting or even rolling down a window to ask them to move over was met with ugly looks and extended middle fingers.

 

Whilst driving (and occasionally whilst cycling downhill) I have often been stuck behind a 'fully laden horsebox" being towed. More often than not they drive much slower than the speed limit and being a big vehicle with a big horsebox, they are very difficult to overtake. Does that give me a right to drive in a manner that endangers the driver of the towing vehicle or the animals in the horsebox? No. Does that give me a right to hoot at the vehicle - no. What I do is understand they also need to use the road, they have a cargo that is precious to them and they need to drive very carefully so as not to throw the animals around. so I understand their situation, exercise patience and consideration and wait until it is safe to pass in a manner that it is not going to frighten or endanger either the driver or the animals, no matter how long it takes. Pretty much the same thing I do when I come up behind a group of cyclists.

 

All road users have a right to use the road. If the horsebox does not look roadworthy, or has no number plate or is in some way infringing the road traffic laws (eg by driving in the emergency lane - which they frequently do) do I have the right to then to endanger human and animal lives. I don't.

 

What must i do? Rant and rave in public forums about "inconsiderate horsebox towers". Ask you to move over? Politely hoot? Or should I just be patient and understanding? I choose to opt for being patient and understanding. You can also make the same choice.

 

I agree that cyclists taking up a whole road is not a good thing, but at the end of the day it does not entitle any motorist to endanger lives or take the law into their own hands. The motorist's duty is to wait until it is safe to overtake.

 

Seriously a bit of patience means we will all get there in the end safely and with a lot less stress in our lives.

[Andrew_ew]

Which is exactly what you are supposed to do according to the law. What's the fuss?

 

It's got nothing to do with some motorists being non-cyclists. It's got to do with as Eldron puts it: "**** you mate. Don't give a **** how many laws I break as long as I'm ok. And another great big **** you if you dare be breaking a law that inconveniences me in the slightest. In fact double **** you for even being alive."

 

Hits the nail on the head

[Sandro]

Whilst driving (and occasionally whilst cycling downhill) I have often been stuck behind a 'fully laden horsebox" being towed. More often than not they drive much slower than the speed limit and being a big vehicle with a big horsebox, they are very difficult to overtake. Does that give me a right to drive in a manner that endangers the driver of the towing vehicle or the animals in the horsebox? No. Does that give me a right to hoot at the vehicle - no. What I do is understand they also need to use the road, they have a cargo that is precious to them and they need to drive very carefully so as not to throw the animals around. so I understand their situation, exercise patience and consideration and wait until it is safe to pass in a manner that it is not going to frighten or endanger either the driver or the animals, no matter how long it takes. Pretty much the same thing I do when I come up behind a group of cyclists.

 

All road users have a right to use the road. If the horsebox does not look roadworthy, or has no number plate or is in some way infringing the road traffic laws (eg by driving in the emergency lane - which they frequently do) do I have the right to then to endanger human and animal lives. I don't.

 

What must i do? Rant and rave in public forums about "inconsiderate horsebox towers". Ask you to move over? Politely hoot? Or should I just be patient and understanding? I choose to opt for being patient and understanding. You can also make the same choice.

 

I agree that cyclists taking up a whole road is not a good thing, but at the end of the day it does not entitle any motorist to endanger lives or take the law into their own hands. The motorist's duty is to wait until it is safe to overtake.

 

Seriously a bit of patience means we will all get there in the end safely and with a lot less stress in our lives.

:clap:

[Zook]

Whilst driving (and occasionally whilst cycling downhill) I have often been stuck behind a 'fully laden horsebox" being towed. More often than not they drive much slower than the speed limit and being a big vehicle with a big horsebox, they are very difficult to overtake. Does that give me a right to drive in a manner that endangers the driver of the towing vehicle or the animals in the horsebox?

 

People don't phone in about horseboxes. I'm sure the same people who moan about riders, have passed horseboxes without needing to rant on the radio. I suspect there is something different that happens here.

 

One possible difference is that it seems well-understood by other drivers that the horsebox is pretty much unable to become thinner, whereas a bunch can with minor effort. A bunch riding 5 abreast is being inconsiderate when a tiny amount of consideration will let cars pass without drama.

[Robrider]

What I don't get is why certain individuals go and spit on someone's car!! I mean seriously, WTF! I would be pissed too. So if someone hoots why don't you smile and wave. The driver would feel better and so would you, get on about your day.

 

I would be SO embarrassed if someone I was riding with did that, no matter what the reason is.

[dev null]

Where's the 'Nutter' emoticon?

 

Was mentioned tongue in cheek. Jeez you guys are touchy bunch! No wonder some guys look so nervous when riding in a bunch.

[Andrew_ew]

People don't phone in about horseboxes. I'm sure the same people who moan about riders, have passed horseboxes without needing to rant on the radio. I suspect there is something different that happens here.

 

One possible difference is that it seems well-understood by other drivers that the horsebox is pretty much unable to become thinner, whereas a bunch can with minor effort. A bunch riding 5 abreast is being inconsiderate when a tiny amount of consideration will let cars pass without drama.

 

To an unreasonable motorist whose time is more important than anyone else's, the fact of a slow moving horsebox in front of them makes them see red - I have seen motorists go off pop at vehicles towing horseboxes, hooting, shouting gesticulating and then pulling off some overtaking move that would have shaken the later great Senna. There is a reason why horsebox's have signs on the back asking motorists to drive considerately. The fact that they don't rant in public about it is probably because no one wants anyone to think they don't like animals so they get a special 'pass'. In one of our local rags though there was one tjop who wrote in ranting about learner drivers on quite suburban roads driving too slowly!

 

I agree if the bunch does not make itself thinner on a wide road and it is safe to do so, then they are being inconsiderate prats, but my point is that it still does not give motorists the right to take the law into their own hands and in the great scheme of things the couple of minutes delay in a motorist's life is not going to end their world. Driving like an idiot may well end their's and other peoples.

 

In certain situations where the road is narrow, it can be dangerous to ride single file as the all important motorist will then try and squeeze through in the face of oncoming traffic when there really isn't the room to do so thereby creating an exceptionally dangerous situation in which the cyclist will always be the loser. In this specific situation in my view, it is safer to ride in a group as the motorist will then be forced to slow down and overtake when it is safe to do so. As for the argument 'well what if it is a blind corner or a blind rise', the answer is that the motorist should be driving through said blind corner or blind rise at a speed at which they can safely stop if there is an unseen obstruction. What if that unseen obstruction is a mother with her children in the car who has just broken down and can't get off the road, or a group of cyclists on a quiet road at an early hour?

[Singing_Indurain]

Was mentioned tongue in cheek. Jeez you guys are touchy bunch! No wonder some guys look so nervous when riding in a bunch.

 

Oops sorry then, use some "tongue in cheek" emoticon so we know you're not serious. Apologies once again.

[Garfield2010]

What I don't get is why certain individuals go and spit on someone's car!! I mean seriously, WTF! I would be pissed too. So if someone hoots why don't you smile and wave. The driver would feel better and so would you, get on about your day.

 

I would be SO embarrassed if someone I was riding with did that, no matter what the reason is.

 

Nooo! Ratehr just apologise. If you smile and wave it may only infuriorate the driver even more......

[Garfield2010]

Also breaking the laws as a cyclist is more than selfish. I wonder how many guys are hit by a motorist driving recklessly because he is so angry due to other cyclists 10km back that pissed him off?

[petatodd]

Anine, on 19 April 2012 - 12:46 , said::

"If you're doing 20 or even 30km/h on an 80km/h stretch of road, then you are obstructing traffic."

There is no regulation at all about moving vehicles obstructing traffic. This is largely the cause of the problem. Ignorance. On the whole motorists believe they have the right to the road. Even if cyclists are single file but not hugging the kerb.

 

There is no God given right to hoot at a cyclist riding single file on a public road, even if they are in the middle of the road.

 

Unfortunately both parties are at fault of breaking the law/ignorance. The law says:

Motorists

It is OK to overtake in the right hand lane, if safe to do so.

It is not OK to pass and then cut back onto left until safe

It is not OK to drive recklessly just because some cyclists have pissed you off

Cyclists

It is not OK to ride two abreast UNLESS overtaking so 2 abreast in a paceline is OK

It is not OK to overtake if being overtaken ie 3 abreast is out

If there is a cycle lane, you HAVE to use it

 

Here is what the law actually says, in lawyer speak:

NO. 93 OF 1996: NATIONAL ROAD TRAFFIC ACT, 1996.

 

 

63. (1) No person shall drive a vehicle on a public road recklessly or

negligently.

(2) Without restricting the ordinary meaning of the word "recklessly" any

person who drives a vehicle in willful or wanton disregard for the safety of

persons or property shall be deemed to drive that vehicle recklessly.

 

National Road Traffic Act Regulations

 

 

Vehicle to be driven on left side of roadway

296. (1) Any person driving a vehicle on a public road shall do so by driving on the left side of the roadway and, where such roadway is of sufficient width, in such manner as not to encroach on that half of the roadway to his or her right: Provided that such encroachment shall be permissible--

where it can be done without obstructing or endangering other traffic or property which is or may be on such half and for a period and distance not longer than is necessary and prudent and provided that it is not prohibited by a road traffic sign; or

in compliance with a direction of a traffic officer or a road traffic sign.

 

Passing of vehicle

298. (1) Subject to the provisions of subregulation (2) "blind spots" and (4) "not encroach on the roadway to right in such manner as may obstruct or endanger such oncoming traffic" and regulation 296, the driver of a vehicle intending to pass any other vehicle proceeding in the same direction on a public road shall pass to the right thereof at a safe distance and shall not again drive on the left side of the roadway until safely clear of the vehicle so passed: Provided that, in the circumstances as aforesaid, passing on the left of such vehicle shall be permissible if the person driving the passing vehicle can do so with safety to himself or herself and other traffic or property which is or may be on such road

 

Riding on pedal cycles

311. (1) No person shall ride a pedal cycle on a public road unless he or she is seated astride on the saddle of such pedal cycle.

(2) Persons riding pedal cycles on a public road shall ride in single file except in the course of overtaking another pedal cycle, and two or more persons riding pedal cycles shall not overtake another vehicle at the same time.

(3) No person riding or seated on a pedal cycle on a public road shall take hold of any other vehicle in motion.

(4) No person riding a pedal cycle on a public road shall deliberately cause such pedal cycle to swerve from side to side.

(5) No person riding a pedal cycle on a public road shall carry thereon any person, animal or object which obstructs his or her view or which prevents him or her from exercising complete control over the movements of such pedal cycle.

(6) A person riding a pedal cycle on a public road shall do so with at least one hand on the handle-bars of such pedal cycle.

(7) Whenever a portion of a public road has been set aside for use by persons riding pedal cycles, no person shall ride a pedal cycle on any other portion of such road.

(8) A person riding a pedal cycle on a public road or a portion of a public road set aside for use by persons riding pedal cycles, shall do so in such manner that all the wheels of such pedal cycle are in contact with the surface of the road at all times.

[pastapouch]

I have ridden in bunches of 35 and upwards in Richardsbay, and we managed to maintain two abreast for at least 95% of the time, even at 5 am....simply by some of the stronger riders taking charge.

 

I would blame the organizers and marshals...

Yes, we've warned a dangerous rider hes style of riding won't be tolerated, it didn't stop him and we had to terminate his membership.

[Zook]

To an unreasonable motorist whose time is more important than anyone else's, the fact of a slow moving horsebox in front of them makes them see red

 

And if the cradle had hundreds of horseboxes flocking there each weekend, maybe there would be more moaning. But it's not our current problem, and so we have the choice of trying to tell every driver to chill, or we can do something we have a bit more power over. Insisting that drivers chill out is a non-solution.

 

Anyway, there's something I choose to do, and that's stay on the left. Doesn't cost me anything, so why not. When I drive into the Cradle (hasn't happened since Teak closed) I don't drive at speeds that would endanger mothers and baby lambs having a picnic in the road. I'm very aware that around any corner there could be cyclists.

 

Just don't make people drive at 25km/h without making some effort to move over. Not hard. Doing anything else can too easily be perceived as a "f-you" by anyone more angry than a Buddhist monk.

 

Agreed on narrow roads. I try avoid them, I guess. I nearly got taken out by a truck that sped past me - the dude went so fast he blew two other riders off the road. I was filled with choice words at the time!

 

Edit: I also got hit by a car once. Cedar rd, about 10 (damn...20) years ago. Riding on the left around Uranium rd, but obviously not far left enough for this one hero. Guy went around me at speed and cut right in front of me to go left. I hit his car and scraped about 15 metres on my back. I was so cross I would still be in jail if he'd stopped. Nobody moved a muscle to help. Still, he's not who I'm talking about. I'm talking about most rational drivers who get irritated by us, and end up hating cyclists.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Zook

[pastapouch]

Anine, on 19 April 2012 - 12:46 , said::

"If you're doing 20 or even 30km/h on an 80km/h stretch of road, then you are obstructing traffic."

There is no regulation at all about moving vehicles obstructing traffic. This is largely the cause of the problem. Ignorance. On the whole motorists believe they have the right to the road. Even if cyclists are single file but not hugging the kerb.

 

There is no God given right to hoot at a cyclist riding single file on a public road, even if they are in the middle of the road.

 

Unfortunately both parties are at fault of breaking the law/ignorance. The law says:

Motorists

It is OK to overtake in the right hand lane, if safe to do so.

It is not OK to pass and then cut back onto left until safe

It is not OK to drive recklessly just because some cyclists have pissed you off

Cyclists

It is not OK to ride two abreast UNLESS overtaking so 2 abreast in a paceline is OK

It is not OK to overtake if being overtaken ie 3 abreast is out

If there is a cycle lane, you HAVE to use it

 

Here is what the law actually says, in lawyer speak:

NO. 93 OF 1996: NATIONAL ROAD TRAFFIC ACT, 1996.

 

 

63. (1) No person shall drive a vehicle on a public road recklessly or

negligently.

(2) Without restricting the ordinary meaning of the word "recklessly" any

person who drives a vehicle in willful or wanton disregard for the safety of

persons or property shall be deemed to drive that vehicle recklessly.

 

National Road Traffic Act Regulations

 

 

Vehicle to be driven on left side of roadway

296. (1) Any person driving a vehicle on a public road shall do so by driving on the left side of the roadway and, where such roadway is of sufficient width, in such manner as not to encroach on that half of the roadway to his or her right: Provided that such encroachment shall be permissible--

where it can be done without obstructing or endangering other traffic or property which is or may be on such half and for a period and distance not longer than is necessary and prudent and provided that it is not prohibited by a road traffic sign; or

in compliance with a direction of a traffic officer or a road traffic sign.

 

Passing of vehicle

298. (1) Subject to the provisions of subregulation (2) "blind spots" and (4) "not encroach on the roadway to right in such manner as may obstruct or endanger such oncoming traffic" and regulation 296, the driver of a vehicle intending to pass any other vehicle proceeding in the same direction on a public road shall pass to the right thereof at a safe distance and shall not again drive on the left side of the roadway until safely clear of the vehicle so passed: Provided that, in the circumstances as aforesaid, passing on the left of such vehicle shall be permissible if the person driving the passing vehicle can do so with safety to himself or herself and other traffic or property which is or may be on such road

 

Riding on pedal cycles

311. (1) No person shall ride a pedal cycle on a public road unless he or she is seated astride on the saddle of such pedal cycle.

(2) Persons riding pedal cycles on a public road shall ride in single file except in the course of overtaking another pedal cycle, and two or more persons riding pedal cycles shall not overtake another vehicle at the same time.

(3) No person riding or seated on a pedal cycle on a public road shall take hold of any other vehicle in motion.

(4) No person riding a pedal cycle on a public road shall deliberately cause such pedal cycle to swerve from side to side.

(5) No person riding a pedal cycle on a public road shall carry thereon any person, animal or object which obstructs his or her view or which prevents him or her from exercising complete control over the movements of such pedal cycle.

(6) A person riding a pedal cycle on a public road shall do so with at least one hand on the handle-bars of such pedal cycle.

(7) Whenever a portion of a public road has been set aside for use by persons riding pedal cycles, no person shall ride a pedal cycle on any other portion of such road.

(8) A person riding a pedal cycle on a public road or a portion of a public road set aside for use by persons riding pedal cycles, shall do so in such manner that all the wheels of such pedal cycle are in contact with the surface of the road at all times.

...and when was these written?

[Seeker911]

Apologies if this is already a thread somewhere else.

 

This morning they spoke about yesterdays accident involving the poor cyclist in Alberton. As you know the taxi pushed the car of the road and the it hit the cyclist so the poor guy didnt see it coming.

 

For some reason people started calling in and it changed to a "I hate cyclist" cession with everybody telling John Robbie how rude the cyclists are.

 

One guy said that he politely hooted to a massive bunch of cyclists on William Nicol (asuming it was probably the cycle lab group??). Then at the next robot when the group caught up the apparently spitted on his windscreen and swore at him.

 

Another guy phoned in and said he was tired of the guys in the cradle riding 5 abreast.

 

I have been cycling in the cradle for a long time now and I have never seen 5 guys next to each other.

 

Both the above accusations in my opinion seems a bit far fetched????

 

Any hubber sout there who have seen the above actually happen?

 

Yes at the recent Eleven Triathlon at Sun City