Tokai: Personal safety

[kandui]

I have been out on a lot of Neighbourhood Watch patrols in Tamboerskloof and we never go out with the intention of becoming violent towards anyone.

One afternoon we saw a Charlie male (Charlie = Coloured, Whiskey= White and Bravo = Black) climb over a wall into a property we knew the owners were out. Followed him and he made a run for it. We eventually caught him on the roof of a neighbouring house. He was was a small, lanky guy and the 3 of us were all over 1,8m tall. The guy fought like a demon to get away, even with 3 of us all over him. In the end , the only thing that helped us get him off the roof was to "soften him up".

I have caught a guy who broke into my garage and was hiding there. I bolted the garage shut and he kicked his way out , through the wooden slats with me pounding him as he made his escape. He was also a lanky guy, but the adrenalin gives these guys superhuman powers. Add to the that the "I feel F all" attitude of a criminal and you are often left with no choice.

 

Why do I mention this ? I was not a witness to the incident, but I can be 99% sure that this guy was not keen to miss his ride on the back of the bakkie and would have fought tooth and nail to get out of the clutches of our Good Samaritan. Armed or Unarmed, these guys value their freedom and don't have the moral threshold you and I might have. They feel nothing to tear you apart ,just to get away with a wallet or a car radio.

[deanbean]

I have been out on a lot of Neighbourhood Watch patrols in Tamboerskloof and we never go out with the intention of becoming violent towards anyone.

One afternoon we saw a Charlie male (Charlie = Coloured, Whiskey= White and Bravo = Black) climb over a wall into a property we knew the owners were out. Followed him and he made a run for it. We eventually caught him on the roof of a neighbouring house. He was was a small, lanky guy and the 3 of us were all over 1,8m tall. The guy fought like a demon to get away, even with 3 of us all over him. In the end , the only thing that helped us get him off the roof was to "soften him up".

I have caught a guy who broke into my garage and was hiding there. I bolted the garage shut and he kicked his way out , through the wooden slats with me pounding him as he made his escape. He was also a lanky guy, but the adrenalin gives these guys superhuman powers. Add to the that the "I feel F all" attitude of a criminal and you are often left with no choice.

 

Why do I mention this ? I was not a witness to the incident, but I can be 99% sure that this guy was not keen to miss his ride on the back of the bakkie and would have fought tooth and nail to get out of the clutches of our Good Samaritan. Armed or Unarmed, these guys value their freedom and don't have the moral threshold you and I might have. They feel nothing to tear you apart ,just to get away with a wallet or a car radio.

I agree with you, this has been my experience too. If you apprehend someone, accept that he will have a weapon on him and treat him appropriately, if it involves a bit of violence, so be it. Unfortunately these guys have always used violence, to subdue their victims, so using violence against them can be construed as self defence. IMHO, of course.

[nishiki]

I've seen these things escalate and thus I stand by what I said; I do not agree with people being heros for the sake of a handbag. That's all I said.

 

(Snipped)

Edited October 3, 2012 by Admin
Personal attacks removed

[Gadgetboy]

On the topic of safety in Tokai, would anyopne like to get together somehow somewhere for a chat around the issue? Perhaps we can come up with suggestions? I know there have been many so far, but sometimes heads around a table can make a more positive contribution?

 

Perhaps one Sunday morning after a ride or so? I go for coffee at Manuka's in Steenberg. Anyone want to join and chat about a mutual subject. I won't be there THIS Sunday, as I'm not here this weekedn, but maybe next Sunday? Or anywhe else?

 

Mike

[(Deon)]

On the topic of safety in Tokai, would anyopne like to get together somehow somewhere for a chat around the issue? Perhaps we can come up with suggestions? I know there have been many so far, but sometimes heads around a table can make a more positive contribution?

 

Perhaps one Sunday morning after a ride or so? I go for coffee at Manuka's in Steenberg. Anyone want to join and chat about a mutual subject. I won't be there THIS Sunday, as I'm not here this weekedn, but maybe next Sunday? Or anywhe else?

 

Mike

 

Thanks for the idea. I will certainly be there..

['Dale]

I know you're pissed off.

But that's uncalled for.

 

Edit: Fixed 'Dale..

 

Thanx for the snip, Pain Or Shine...

:-)

['Dale]

All the best with Tokai MTB decision-makers in handling this challenge.

 

Tough stuff.

Edited October 2, 2012 by ' Dale

['Dale]

Actually, I was referring to both (sorry, should have made that clearer). I was criticising Nishiki for advocating peaceful protest against criminals, and 'Dale for not taking a stand and criticising what I think was perfectly justified anger from Omega Man's side. Hopefully my complex explanation is not cause for even more confusion (Edit to fix a typo)

 

Wishing for a man's rape and imminent suffering through illness is uncool, even in a bout of anger.

 

Be safe out there, Riders.

[Trance Dance]

I think its great that Mike stepped in to assist the victim. In addition to the force required to subdue a criminal, there is also the fight or flight response. I reckon in those situations you do what comes naturally, and that is use physical force. I detest violence, but understand it in these situations.

 

I think I also get where Nishiki is coming from. When guys take pride in beating up the criminal or use it for bragging rights it becomes a problem. Criminal or not, when people take pleasure in inflicting pain and violence on another human being, you allow the thieves to take more than you possessions but also your humanity.

['Dale]

I like your management of this thread, Pain Or Shine.

 

This topic is a tough one.

Talking / typing about it is one thing. Dealing with it in reality is another.

 

All the best out there.

Edited October 2, 2012 by ' Dale

[(Deon)]

Sorry Norman. There was no bragging and no back patting for Mike's alleged "assault". Any comment congratulating Mike seems to be for intervening and apprehending the criminal. I agree that if there was bragging to be had from this incident, we may need to check on the type of people we have become.

 

For Nishiki to continue his tirade he is in effect making us out to be the blood thirsty people he describes.. Can you see it anywhere in this thread?

[LazyTrailRider]

Wishing for a man's rape and imminent suffering through illness is uncool, even in a bout of anger.

 

Be safe out there, Riders.

 

'Dale, this raises the whole debate around measured and equal response. Would it have been OK for Omega Man to only have wished for the perpetrator's own vehicle broken into and wallet or bag to be stolen? Following the same logic, if the perp broke someone's leg during the process, would it not have been OK to wish the perpetrator to suffer by their own leg being broken?

 

Let's take it to the highest point of the this scale, shall we? If someone willingly makes an attempt on my life, I will not for one second hesitate to kill them, should killing be the only option available to me to prevent my life from being taken. I would as a matter of principle not harbour even the remotest feeling of guilt.

 

The above is what I'm really talking about. I suspect you're of the opinion that all men have the right to life, regardless of what they've done. I don't.

[Guest Omega Man]

Wishing for a man's rape and imminent suffering through illness is uncool, even in a bout of anger.

 

Be safe out there, Riders.

Yup. You are right. I apologise. I don't wish ill on anyone even a cowardly thief.

 

I rode Tokai yesterday evening and the subject was the talk of the parking lot. As it would be. Evenyone I spoke to was stoked that the thief had been caught.

 

So once again. Well done Mike.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Omega Man

[nishiki]

Sorry Norman. There was no bragging and no back patting for Mike's alleged "assault". Any comment congratulating Mike seems to be for intervening and apprehending the criminal. I agree that if there was bragging to be had from this incident, we may need to check on the type of people we have become.

 

For Nishiki to continue his tirade he is in effect making us out to be the blood thirsty people he describes.. Can you see it anywhere in this thread?

I think I now understand why the trails look so shoddy up at Tokai. You have a problem with your eyes.

 

The OP said "After I got him off the bakkie, I did kick him in the jaw, and dislodge a tooth or two.

He spilled some blood!!!"

 

What part of that doesn't sound like bragging or blood thirst?

[(Deon)]

..and you keep coming back for more.. You are the one with a problem man.

 

Sounds like a description to me. Go and watch some more Barney if that is all you can handle!

 

No show us all the alleged back patting you vehemently defend.. ass!

Edited October 3, 2012 by Pain or Shine

[nishiki]

..and you keep coming back for more.. You are the one with a problem man.

 

Sounds like a description to me. Go and watch some more Barney if that is all you can handle!

 

No show us all the alleged back patting you vehemently defend.. ass!

Yeah, a description with 3 exclamation marks!!!

 

Like, hey POS, get your eyes tested!!!

 

or, hey I cleared the gap!!!

 

or, hey I spilled some blood!!!

 

Are you not supposed to be at a pre-strategy-chat-about-stragey meeting?