Spokes, where to buy and mixing on same wheel?

[Skinnyone]

I agree with Johan, you can't compare the 355 wheel (26) to a 29, I build up all the new powertap wheels and we use Pillar double butted spokes, I also tie and solder them for more rigidity - although Johan would disagree with this practice I have noted that there is a marked increase in durability and stiffness of the wheels, the other note is to use the maximum spoke tension that the rim will allow or a fraction under to allow for rider weights etc...

 

Straight gauge spokes will not make a wheel stiffer or last longer and have no place in my book unless like has been mentioned there is absolutely nothing else available or the spokes are so short they need to be custom cut. As for 290 292 spokes they are a pretty common size and you shouldn't need to get ones cut...

[Johan Bornman]

I built myself a set of wheels for my 29'er with Hope hubs, Loaded XCM rims and Revolution spokes (1.5 butted)

These are built 2 cross.

This is the stiffest set of wheels I have.

Anton, your physics just don't measure up here.

We can measure wheel stiffness in three planes: Radial, lateral and tangential.

Radial stiffness is a function of rim strength and the loaded XCM rims will provide more than adequate stiffness, they are stiff rims with plenty of meat in them.

Lateral stiffness is a function of the bracing angle of the spokes, the length of the spokes and the spoke cross section (thickness). For all wheels with a given rim diameter and most commercially-available hubs like Hope, there is nothing you can do to increase or decrease the stiffness. Bracing angle is what it is and hubs all have more or less same flange size or sizes so close to each other than the statistical difference is negligible.

Thus, it leaves us with tangential angle (the number of crosses. The more crosses you have, the closest to a perfect tangent you have where the spokes depart from the hub flange) and spoke diameter.

A 1.5mm spoke is not as stiff as a 1.8mm spoke. That's just how it is. Secondly, a 2X lacing is further away from Tangent than a 3X lacing and this will make the wheel less stiff in terms of windup, that matters in pedaling and braking forces.

 

Saying that these are your stiffest wheels thus only tells us that you have other wheels that are less stiff. It doesn't contribute to the debate as to what influences stiffness.

[Johan Bornman]

I agree with Johan, you can't compare the 355 wheel (26) to a 29, I build up all the new powertap wheels and we use Pillar double butted spokes, I also tie and solder them for more rigidity - although Johan would disagree with this practice I have noted that there is a marked increase in durability and stiffness of the wheels, the other note is to use the maximum spoke tension that the rim will allow or a fraction under to allow for rider weights etc...

 

Straight gauge spokes will not make a wheel stiffer or last longer and have no place in my book unless like has been mentioned there is absolutely nothing else available or the spokes are so short they need to be custom cut. As for 290 292 spokes they are a pretty common size and you shouldn't need to get ones cut...

 

The experiment for wheel rigidity with tied-and-soldered spokes has been done, by Brandt et al. You can read the report in The Bicycle Wheel in Part II - Equations and Tests. Since you don't have a copy at hand (I assume), I'll tell you a little bit about the test. Brandt tested for stiffness laterally and tortionally. On the lateral test two identical wheels - the one tied and soldered, the other not, were fixed horizontally at the hub in a rigid fixture. A weight of 160N (say 16kgs) was suspended from a cable and tied around the rim. Deflection was measured with a dial gauge in four positions, each 90 degrees from each other and one directly at the cable. The deflection at the four positions all remained within ).05mm from each other at the four points, for both wheels. 0.05mm is smaller than the measuring error. Conclusion is that tie-and-solder is a waste of time.

In the torsional test, the wheel in the same jig, had a cable wrapped around the rim like rimtape and a dial gauge attached to the loose end of the cable. A pull of 300N was exerted on the wheel and the deflection for the two wheels measured. The difference was 2%, which was exactly the variance in the measurements between the different "takes" of the experiment. Conclusion: I am sure you can fill in this gap.

Why bother?

 

As for your claim that the durability goes up, I wonder how you came to that conclusion? A properly built wheel with stress-relieved spokes have near-infinite spoke life. How would you measure an improvement on infinity without proper controls, a large sample, a homogenized environment and an artificially-accelerated load cycle?

Edited June 20, 2014 by Johan Bornman

[Wyatt Earp]

Double post.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Wyatt Earp

[Wyatt Earp]

Anton, your physics just don't measure up here.

We can measure wheel stiffness in three planes: Radial, lateral and tangential.

Radial stiffness is a function of rim strength and the loaded XCM rims will provide more than adequate stiffness, they are stiff rims with plenty of meat in them.

Lateral stiffness is a function of the bracing angle of the spokes, the length of the spokes and the spoke cross section (thickness). For all wheels with a given rim diameter and most commercially-available hubs like Hope, there is nothing you can do to increase or decrease the stiffness. Bracing angle is what it is and hubs all have more or less same flange size or sizes so close to each other than the statistical difference is negligible.

Thus, it leaves us with tangential angle (the number of crosses. The more crosses you have, the closest to a perfect tangent you have where the spokes depart from the hub flange) and spoke diameter.

A 1.5mm spoke is not as stiff as a 1.8mm spoke. That's just how it is. Secondly, a 2X lacing is further away from Tangent than a 3X lacing and this will make the wheel less stiff in terms of windup, that matters in pedaling and braking forces.

 

Saying that these are your stiffest wheels thus only tells us that you have other wheels that are less stiff. It doesn't contribute to the debate as to what influences stiffness.

 

2nd. 29'er set I built myself with a two cross configuration.

The other set was on an American Classic Rim with DT Swiss 240 s hubs, Nathrix is still riding that wheel set, crazy stiff as well.

I decided one day to just give it a bash and see what I would have to lose.

My Budnitz came straight from the States with Velocity Blunt SL rims and White Industries hubs, stiff as hell and have a lovely ride feel to them.

 

These are three examples of wheels with two cross and double butted spokes I enjoy.

The physic behind it I will not discuss as I have no interest in yet another senseless and tireless debate.

We have been in circles numerous times in the past, I refuse to go there.

 

Enjoy the Highlands.

[King_Crispy]

 

 

I built myself a set of wheels for my 29'er with Hope hubs, Loaded XCM rims and Revolution spokes (1.5 butted)

These are built 2 cross.

This is the stiffest set of wheels I have.

2 cross and not 3. What are the spokes tensioned to? Surely not a recommended setup on alloy nipples?

I know you're a fan of brass nipples

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

 

 

2 cross and not 3. What are the spokes tensioned to? Surely not a recommended setup on alloy nipples?

I know you're a fan of brass nipples

 

They do react better to a good twist...