What is the PPA doing?

[Patchelicious]

Afaik racetec charge a fixed cost to event organisers for timing. I can't recall the exact numbers but for the event I was involved it was certainly more expensive than other timing companies (in fact we don't use them for the mtb anymore). So no cross-subsidies there.

 

 

General comment - I find this in-depth dissection of PPA's financials fairly pointless, don't know what you guys really expect to dig up, certainly not the solution to bicycling safety.

Exactly FFS

 

As per the title: What are they DOING, not what are they spending jeeesus *** mense!!!!!

[Icycling]

do you really thiink that MTB events only attract a 100 riders and the roadie ones a 1000 ... so 10 x the number of participants?

 

if someone who does know more accurately the figures of participants, could you please comment?

I looked at a number of race tec result where MTB events are that small. What I don't know is how many riders choose to not ride with a timing chip etc. Likewise I been told by the chief road marshal for this Sundays road ride that their were 1250 entrance and a lot of people road with temp numbers and No timing chips.

 

This is the dialog I had with Robert Vogal last year over MTB timing last year, yes I have tried to understand exactly what timing cost:

 

Begin forwarded message:

 

From: Peter

Subject: Re: Cost of timing?

Date: 08 February 2016 at 9:39:54 AM SAST

To: Robert <robert@pedalpower>

Cc: gjkruger@

Dear Robert,

 

Thank you for this info and the link to the website with all the info on it.

 

Then, assuming the info I have is correct, MTB timing cost - from the website it cost PPA R10 000.00 to time a MTB ride, then Bouckaert-Soenen paid for another mat at R6000.00 (was this for the MTB race?), their were 142 results on the racetec results page for this event, thus it cost over R110 per ride to give them a racetec result. Is this not a rather a lot of money for a result? The big cycle MTB had 96 racetec timed riders, thats over R100 per rider a racetec result assuming PPA just sent out timing at R10 000.00?

 

For this amount of cyclist surely a person could sit at the finish line and up load results manually - I sure their are plenty of people out their who would do this for way less the R16 000 / R10 000 for a weekends mornings / days work. I have managed cyclist at The ABSA Cape Epic and rarely do huge bunches of MTB cyclist finish at once - normally it is 2 at a time with minutes between the next 2, at this 2 man team event. The racetec MTB results I have seen also confirm no big bunches at PPA MTB events.

 

Are timing cost not completely out of control for PPA MTB results considering the number of riders who go to PPA MTB rides with timing chips and finishing the event? Bouckaert- Soenen is an established road and MTB funride, with both versions of the sport been cattered for several years.

 

Why are PPA MTB events still costing less to host compared to road events, extract below? From the racetec results road funrides get far more support from PPA members / cyclists - i.e. PPA members want road event or when they participate in  MTB events they seem often to go do these events organised by organisers outside of PPA umbrella.

 

"Events that are accepted onto the PPA calendar pay PPA a small fee ( High season Road: R13 800; Low season Road R7 600; MTB R4 500) to be accepted onto the PPA calendar as a fully-supported event.”

 

Please note I have copied Gary Kruger on this mail as I wish to discuss this with him too.

 

On a different note I did my 1st PPA road funded (Apart from the Cape Ton Cycle tour) 99er this past weekend in many years and it was a VERY well organised event.

 

Regards

 

Peter Wheeler

 

 

 

 

On 04 Feb 2016, at 11:21 AM, Robert <robert@pedalpower-org-za.> wrote:

 

Good Morning Peter

 

My apologies for the delayed response to your email from the 26th of

January.

 

In answer to your questions.

 

Bouckaert-Soenen paid PPA:

 

Road: R13800

MTB: R 4500

 

Please take note that the above amounts include timing,but are not the

cost of timing for either event.

The above figures are the total cost to the event organiser to be

fully-supported PPA event.

 

The organisers requested a second mat which they pay for. Cost: R6000.

(refer to the link below)

 

This information is freely available on our website. You can refer to it

for any future queries.

Follow this link  http://www.pedalpower.org.za/where-does-the-money-go/

and scroll down to  "2. How does PPA assist events financially?²

 

Racetec is 100% owned by the Cape Town Cycle Tour Trust.

 

Regards

Robert

 

 

--

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 2016/01/26, 11:14 AM, "Peter" <> wrote:

 

Dear Robert,

 

Could you please provide me with details of timing costs for the

Bouckaert-Soenen cycling events for this past weekend?

 

My question is what did it cost to do this timing on Saturday (MTB) and

on Sunday (road)? I trust the amount can be calculated individually for

both days. Figures have been give by people in the know - and I am very

curious to verify these figures to be correct.

 

As for Racetec itself I cannot recall if it¹s owned 50% PPA and 50% Cycle

tour (basically meaning 75% PPA and 25 % Rotary) or 100% Cycles tour

(basically 50% PPA and 50% Rotary). Their may have been a 5% ownership by

the PPA trust or something similar. Can you provide me with these details?

 

Regards

 

Peter Wheeler

 

 

 

[Pure Savage]

Hairy, you told me where the info came from so it's not an assumption. So please let's cut the crap.

 

Don't confuse my frustration with people defending PPA with me bashing the PPA.

 

If you want to defend them, that's cool, the just substantiate it.

 

I asked, and am still asking people on TheHub if THEY know what the PPA is doing on the cycling safety front.

 

If somebody said: The PPA is doing x,y,z over the next 12 months on these fronts, this conversation would be a lot more constructive.

 

But none of us know, so at the moment it's my speculation vs your speculation. This helps nobody, and it's detracting from why I started this thread.

 

The PPA need to produce this. 

 

To be fair, when you asked what they are currently doing I did show you. That is their attempt at safe cycling. 

[Patchelicious]

Its obviously not a detailed enough plan that you require if thats the answer you are looking for.

 

Agreed they need a proper plan, with different time frames which should cover all aspects of cycling safety.

Precisely, and you know what, if their plan made sense, I would more than likely get involved to help execute it!! That's the friggen point of all of this!!!!

[Pure Savage]

Precisely, and you know what, if their plan made sense, I would more than likely get involved to help execute it!! That's the friggen point of all of this!!!!

 

I do get a feeling from that link I sent, that its a lot of what cyclists to do to be safe on the roads but very little of what legislation needs changing and how motorists should treat cyclists. 

[Hairy]

Hairy, you told me where the info came from so it's not an assumption. So please let's cut the crap.

 

Don't confuse my frustration with people defending PPA with me bashing the PPA.

 

If you want to defend them, that's cool, the just substantiate it.

 

I asked, and am still asking people on TheHub if THEY know what the PPA is doing on the cycling safety front.

 

If somebody said: The PPA is doing x,y,z over the next 12 months on these fronts, this conversation would be a lot more constructive.

 

But none of us know, so at the moment it's my speculation vs your speculation. This helps nobody, and it's detracting from why I started this thread.

Patch

 

We seem to not be on the same wavelength, but I think we are after mostly the same results. Safer Roads.

 

Now, if you refer to the PM I sent you, and that you are now quoting me on. Thank you for using what is being sent as a PM on a public platform. If I wanted that to start with, I would have posted as such. True I tried to swing the direction from Rob V in one of your posts, because, and as per the PM I sent you, I was waiting for him to confirm if I could quote him as Rob V saying those exact figures. I was clear about this, please see below my PM to you again....I have not shown my name at the end of the copy paste as I do not wish this in a public forum. I just roll like that.

 

My point remains. If you all want more information, go ask them directly. Shouting out on a platform that you know will not achieve your desired results is just plain silly IMHO.

 

Yo Yo Yo Patch

 

 

The figures were from Robert via a quote to me on What's APP, I got the message a while after he sent it, and replied to him if I could quote him directly, have not heard from him yet, so therefore I did not note the info came from him.

 

 

True. 

 

On that note: Today I noted Allan Winde on twitter was very active reprimanding businesses for parking in the cycle lane. 

Kief, the pics and posts he was using was generated by myself as @CTCycleLanes. So trying to clean up one aspect of safer cycling in my own way.

[Bloukrans]

Guys can we please focus on the question in the thread title? Simple as that.

 

I dont blame PPA for contributing here.

 

If you a PPA member direct the questions to them. It seems they even respond to non PPA members like Peter.

 

Let us be constructive and avoid factions. We all want safer roads and need to focus on oom Andre question in the title.

 

Be safe out there

[carbon29er]

do you really thiink that MTB events only attract a 100 riders and the roadie ones a 1000 ... so 10 x the number of participants?

 

if someone who does know more accurately the figures of participants, could you please comment?

Part 1 of your question: Yes, I do for a number of events. Just look at Racetec results service.

 

Part 2 of your question: Here are the numbers for 2013-2015 I pulled out when on Exco:

 

 

Road takes it by a huge margin.

 

Note: these are unique cyclists who rode at least 1 road and or 1 MTB event in the relevant year.

 

The blue line shows the relevance of PPA to the majority of cyclists who ride road events. According to the 2016 AFS the number of PPA members dropped again in 2016.

 

These are facts, not unaudited figures supplied on the hush hush by the CEO to quash this thread.

[Hairy]

Part 1 of your question: Yes, I do for a number of events. Just look at Racetec results service.

 

Part 2 of your question: Here are the numbers for 2013-2015 I pulled out when on Exco:

 

PS1045.jpg

 

Road takes it by a huge margin.

 

Note: these are unique cyclists who rode at least 1 road and or 1 MTB event in the relevant year.

 

The blue line shows the relevance of PPA to the majority of cyclists who ride road events. According to the 2016 AFS the number of PPA members dropped again in 2016.

 

These are facts, not unaudited figures supplied on the hush hush by the CEO to quash this thread.

Thanks for the figures. Interesting to see it graphically.

 

Can anyone who enters both MTB and Roadie events advise on the average cost per entry or each discipline?

 

RE you last comment of hush hush. I approached him with the question and he answered. There was no intent from PPA to squash the thread. I can not see how you managed to read that from my posts?

 

I asked those questions, because I also do not want to take what others only are posting as being gospel.

 

Do you have any real evidence to suggest that the figures I posted are not accurate, or at least very close to the truth? If so, please divulge this information.

[Patchelicious]

Guys can we please focus on the question in the thread title? Simple as that.

 

I dont blame PPA for contributing here.

 

If you a PPA member direct the questions to them. It seems they even respond to non PPA members like Peter.

 

Let us be constructive and avoid factions. We all want safer roads and need to focus on oom Andre question in the title.

 

Be safe out there

Oom, lol, I'm regretting that I told that story ????????????

[Patchelicious]

Part 1 of your question: Yes, I do for a number of events. Just look at Racetec results service.

 

Part 2 of your question: Here are the numbers for 2013-2015 I pulled out when on Exco:

 

PS1045.jpg

 

Road takes it by a huge margin.

 

Note: these are unique cyclists who rode at least 1 road and or 1 MTB event in the relevant year.

 

The blue line shows the relevance of PPA to the majority of cyclists who ride road events. According to the 2016 AFS the number of PPA members dropped again in 2016.

 

These are facts, not unaudited figures supplied on the hush hush by the CEO to quash this thread.

The thing that I find most interesting in those graphs, is that the MTB rate of growth vs Road, is not nearly as big as I thought it would be....

[Icycling]

The thing that I find most interesting in those graphs, is that the MTB rate of growth vs Road, is not nearly as big as I thought it would be....

What is possibly more interesting is the blue bar showing a small decide of PPA members doing events, while the total entrance between road and MTB is going up.

[Patchelicious]

Patch

 

We seem to not be on the same wavelength, but I think we are after mostly the same results. Safer Roads.

 

Now, if you refer to the PM I sent you, and that you are now quoting me on. Thank you for using what is being sent as a PM on a public platform. If I wanted that to start with, I would have posted as such. True I tried to swing the direction from Rob V in one of your posts, because, and as per the PM I sent you, I was waiting for him to confirm if I could quote him as Rob V saying those exact figures. I was clear about this, please see below my PM to you again....I have not shown my name at the end of the copy paste as I do not wish this in a public forum. I just roll like that.

 

My point remains. If you all want more information, go ask them directly. Shouting out on a platform that you know will not achieve your desired results is just plain silly IMHO.

 

Yo Yo Yo Patch

 

 

The figures were from Robert via a quote to me on What's APP, I got the message a while after he sent it, and replied to him if I could quote him directly, have not heard from him yet, so therefore I did not note the info came from him.

 

 

Kief, the pics and posts he was using was generated by myself as @CTCycleLanes. So trying to clean up one aspect of safer cycling in my own way.

We do want the same things, I agree.

 

There is also nothing wrong with approaching the same problem from different angles. But you deflecting the discussion about the PPA is akin to me telling you why I think fighting for cycling lanes is silly... I would rather not do that, and would rather support you and your initiative, because as I have said before a multipronged approach will be way more successful than putting all out Hub eggs in one basket. I took lots of flak for my #ConsiderateCycling campaign, I'm sure Carbon took flak for his yellow shirt "thing" too But we must brush off what we see as critism and carry on fighting to make a difference.

 

If you think my question of "What are they doing" is irrational and not something worth debating, then just say so. I asked it on the Hub specifically to create a discussion around what it is and what it is we think they should do, so that I could actually approach them with constructive suggestions..... my mistake thinking that we could debate a point constructively.

 

Re the PM, I didn't make mention of it until you publically said that I was assuming something when you knew I wasn't. But that's besides the point here. I didn't quote it, I referred to it to correct an incorrect statement you made about me personally.

 

I am glad to see that you are doing your bit with the CyclingLane thing, keep it up!

[Hairy]

We do want the same things, I agree.

 

There is also nothing wrong with approaching the same problem from different angles. But you deflecting the discussion about the PPA is akin to me telling you why I think fighting for cycling lanes is silly... I would rather not do that, and would rather support you and your initiative, because as I have said before a multipronged approach will be way more successful than putting all out Hub eggs in one basket. I took lots of flak for my #ConsiderateCycling campaign, I'm sure Carbon took flak for his yellow shirt "thing" too But we must brush off what we see as critism and carry on fighting to make a difference.

 

If you think my question of "What are they doing" is irrational and not something worth debating, then just say so. I asked it on the Hub specifically to create a discussion around what it is and what it is we think they should do, so that I could actually approach them with constructive suggestions..... my mistake thinking that we could debate a point constructively.

 

Re the PM, I didn't make mention of it until you publically said that I was assuming something when you knew I wasn't. But that's besides the point here. I didn't quote it, I referred to it to correct an incorrect statement you made about me personally.

 

I am glad to see that you are doing your bit with the CyclingLane thing, keep it up!

Thanks Patch, so we are pushing for the same.

[Hairy]

going to cycle home now .... hope no cars or thieves take me for fair game

[carbon29er]

Snip

 

Do you have any real evidence to suggest that the figures I posted are not accurate, or at least very close to the truth? If so, please divulge this information.

I posted the actual figures in my response to your 3 posts.

 

You said something about huge expenditure and a figure over R3 million. I said the actual budget is R2.4 million and they have spent R657k.

 

You retorted that they were hearsay.  I stand by my figures of budget and actual spend.

 

I think you were misled by your source.

 

Just for the record, I am a CA, I do not post information I have not verified as being correct.