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Why so slow?


ABrooks

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Thank you for all the replies so far, will try to answer all the questions in detail when I get the chance for now I will try to answer some questions that came up a few times.

 

Both the hardtail and dual-sus are xc bikes, so geometry is around the same ie. Head-angle around 70-71°, so I don't think it is an geometry issue.

 

The hardtail was a titan frame with upgraded slx/xt drivetrain and brakes and a upgraded reba fork. The dual-sus is a Silverback Sesta, slx/xt components, reba fork and fox float dps shock. The Sesta is second hand and quite new, I know the owner and he rode probably less than 1000km on fire roads.

 

I feel slower and the Strava times show it on the downhill sections, I have actually got some PR's on climbs with the new bike. I also brake much more for say rocky drops or technical corners than I used to. The front wheel did wash out once, but I did not mention it as I felt slower before it happened, just thought I needed to get used to the bike. Since then I reduced the rebound a bit in both the fork and shock.

 

I ride on the same tyres Barzo front and Saguaro rear at about the same pressures.

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Having switched from a hardtail to full suspension in April this year, I would like to share my experience, as it might be relevant.

 

The hardtail I rode had a 100 mm coil fork.  Not the greatest, but it worked and was reliable as can be. Switching to full suspension (120 mm front and rear) with no experience of air suspension and the likes, I spent over an hour at my LBS to get the set up (geometry and sag) done properly and to learn what I can.  Got the sag dead on at 30% and I haven't changed it since.  Despite doing the set up, with which I am extremely pleased as I haven't had the need to adjust anything, the rebound seemed like an issue.  The guy at the LBS told me about the rebound, what it does and adjusted it to a recommended setting, but he was also very clear about the fact that I should play around with the rebound to suit my riding style.

 

So after two or three rides on the new full suspension, I noticed that I was beating my own PR's on Strava in technical sections.  The reason this is significant is the fact that my fitness wasn't close to what it was a year ago!  After getting some of my fitness back I stopped beating my own PR's, only equalling them.  I had noticed that I felt somewhat unstable on my bicycle in the technical stuff, despite trying to push my own limits.  Then I remembered that I was supposed to play with the rebound.

 

So I watched a couple of Youtube videos on the topic and started to fiddle around with the rebound.  I found that the rear shock was for the greatest part the culprit for my instability, as it was not set to be responsive enough.  In defence of my LBS, they're settings are spot on for gravel roads (of which Bloemfontein has plenty)!!!

 

Another culprit I identified was tyre pressure.  The hardtail had 29 x 2.2 tyres, while the fullsus has 29 x 2.3.  I rode the hardtail at 1.6 bar and it was perfect, so I thought it would be worth sticking to the same tyre pressure.  Jacked it up to 1.8 bar and now I don't have any instability issues anymore, even beating my own PR's constantly as I push my abilities and fitness further.

 

Rebound and sag on the shocks, tyre pressure and the way you ride all have an influence.  Play around with those and I'm sure you'll get to enjoy your fullsus as much as I'm now enjoying mine!

What he said  :thumbup:

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Thank you for all the replies so far, will try to answer all the questions in detail when I get the chance for now I will try to answer some questions that came up a few times.

 

Both the hardtail and dual-sus are xc bikes, so geometry is around the same ie. Head-angle around 70-71°, so I don't think it is an geometry issue.

 

The hardtail was a titan frame with upgraded slx/xt drivetrain and brakes and a upgraded reba fork. The dual-sus is a Silverback Sesta, slx/xt components, reba fork and fox float dps shock. The Sesta is second hand and quite new, I know the owner and he rode probably less than 1000km on fire roads.

 

I feel slower and the Strava times show it on the downhill sections, I have actually got some PR's on climbs with the new bike. I also brake much more for say rocky drops or technical corners than I used to. The front wheel did wash out once, but I did not mention it as I felt slower before it happened, just thought I needed to get used to the bike. Since then I reduced the rebound a bit in both the fork and shock.

 

I ride on the same tyres Barzo front and Saguaro rear at about the same pressures.

Stem length?

 

Also - 20% sag on a fork is pretty darn high. Even more so when it's a 100mm fork. I'd recommend first increasing the pressure a tad, so that it's around the 10% mark. Play with the compression settings so that there's more support in the mid stroke, and play with the rebound a bit as well. 

 

Also - if you're feeling like you're going over the front a lot, maybe it's due to a stem that's super long, which is putting your weight in front of the headtube and axle (which will result in a feeling of going OTB all the time in technical sections, unless you have the requisite skills - like Nino - to overcome that)

 

Are you on the right size bike? 

 

Stem length? Bar width? Height? Bike size? 

 

Either a combination of those factors, or you just don't gel with the bike just yet. 

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Your new bike's geometry could be quite a bit different to your old one, meaning maybe the head angle is quite a bit steeper so you feel like your front end will wash out etc. You will need some time to adjust to the new bike. You say that it feels like it wants to wash out, has it?

 

It has washed out yes, but I think it was more an error on my side as it was the bike not behaving. I think I accidentally pulled the front brake as I headed into a berm, or that is what I think happened. The stability issues were present before I fell though.

 

Maybe give more info RE the frame , could be downhill geometry not XC ?   Is it same wheelset or just same tyres?

 

There few of us from Stellies on here, If you want I can have a look at bike, but i'm not expert on shocks adjustments (I'm a roady) but can quickly tell you if frame worn etc.

 

The two bikes' frame geometry is close to each other in terms of head angle, the two bikes in question is a Titan sport (HT) and a Silverback Sesta (DS). The tyres were swapped out, the old rims were Titan branded and the new ones are Stans Crest on SLX hubs.

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A full suspension does take a little getting used to initially and does require a little bit of a different riding style. You'll never have the quick acceleration out of a corner like you do on a hardtail because the suspension will compress a little killing the forward motion. Unless you have a remote lever to fully lock it when necessary.

 

I ride 2 total opposites of the spectrum, a singlespeed rigid and also a full suspension geared bike. Both bikes are equally fun and faster than each other in certain places due to what they're intended to do.

 

Play with your rear suspension pressures and settings, the full suspension does have a bit of a dead feeling initially until youre used to it.

I didnt like the feeling of not knowing where my back wheel was at first, now its great.

 

good luck

 

Thanks for the advise, for me it is more an issue of the speed at which I approach things like drops, jumps, berms or just general technical terrain. 

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Having switched from a hardtail to full suspension in April this year, I would like to share my experience, as it might be relevant.

 

The hardtail I rode had a 100 mm coil fork.  Not the greatest, but it worked and was reliable as can be. Switching to full suspension (120 mm front and rear) with no experience of air suspension and the likes, I spent over an hour at my LBS to get the set up (geometry and sag) done properly and to learn what I can.  Got the sag dead on at 30% and I haven't changed it since.  Despite doing the set up, with which I am extremely pleased as I haven't had the need to adjust anything, the rebound seemed like an issue.  The guy at the LBS told me about the rebound, what it does and adjusted it to a recommended setting, but he was also very clear about the fact that I should play around with the rebound to suit my riding style.

 

So after two or three rides on the new full suspension, I noticed that I was beating my own PR's on Strava in technical sections.  The reason this is significant is the fact that my fitness wasn't close to what it was a year ago!  After getting some of my fitness back I stopped beating my own PR's, only equalling them.  I had noticed that I felt somewhat unstable on my bicycle in the technical stuff, despite trying to push my own limits.  Then I remembered that I was supposed to play with the rebound.

 

So I watched a couple of Youtube videos on the topic and started to fiddle around with the rebound.  I found that the rear shock was for the greatest part the culprit for my instability, as it was not set to be responsive enough.  In defence of my LBS, they're settings are spot on for gravel roads (of which Bloemfontein has plenty)!!!

 

Another culprit I identified was tyre pressure.  The hardtail had 29 x 2.2 tyres, while the fullsus has 29 x 2.3.  I rode the hardtail at 1.6 bar and it was perfect, so I thought it would be worth sticking to the same tyre pressure.  Jacked it up to 1.8 bar and now I don't have any instability issues anymore, even beating my own PR's constantly as I push my abilities and fitness further.

 

Rebound and sag on the shocks, tyre pressure and the way you ride all have an influence.  Play around with those and I'm sure you'll get to enjoy your fullsus as much as I'm now enjoying mine!

 

I will look into both tyre pressure and rebound adjustments, I slowed the rebound down initially as I thought it might be that in corners and so on the back end wanted to rebound too fast causing the unstable feeling.

 

Edit: Spelling

Edited by Brooks42
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Could be you just need to get use to the new bike some bikes takes time and others feel perfect from the moment you get on it. Try dropping your bars to get more weight on the front wheel without leaning over it. I went back to hardtail (new geometry slacker longer) and I am loving it because I am rather weighty I struggled on the climbs, descending just let go of the brakes and hold on.

 

I bought a new stem and handlebar a while back, 50mm stem 780mm handlebars, I prefer the wider grip. The previous setup was a 90mm stem with 680mm bars.

 

I am now back to the 90 mm stem with a negative rise and testing the bars at 740mm, I am considering getting a 70mm stem to go with the 740mm bars. I haven't felt an improvement in switching between bar and stems.

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I bought a new stem and handlebar a while back, 50mm stem 780mm handlebars, I prefer the wider grip. The previous setup was a 90mm stem with 680mm bars.

 

I am now back to the 90 mm stem with a negative rise and testing the bars at 740mm, I am considering getting a 70mm stem to go with the 740mm bars. I haven't felt an improvement in switching between bar and stems.

How long did you give it between switching?

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Going from a Titan sport to a Silverback Sesta is quite an upgrade the Sesta is a light fast dual I have only had a quick spin on 1 and was very impressed with the accelleration but being a race bike it could feel a little twitchy but I am sure when you get the feel for it it is going to blow you away.

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Stem length?

 

Also - 20% sag on a fork is pretty darn high. Even more so when it's a 100mm fork. I'd recommend first increasing the pressure a tad, so that it's around the 10% mark. Play with the compression settings so that there's more support in the mid stroke, and play with the rebound a bit as well. 

 

Also - if you're feeling like you're going over the front a lot, maybe it's due to a stem that's super long, which is putting your weight in front of the headtube and axle (which will result in a feeling of going OTB all the time in technical sections, unless you have the requisite skills - like Nino - to overcome that)

 

Are you on the right size bike? 

 

Stem length? Bar width? Height? Bike size? 

 

Either a combination of those factors, or you just don't gel with the bike just yet. 

 

I went from 90/680 to 50/780 to 90(negative rise)/740 (stem length/bar width). The different lengths don't feel all that different to me, I just feel more leaned over than normal with the longer stems.

 

I'm 175 cm, riding a large frame. Bottom bracket to saddle length is about 735 mm and saddle to handlebar is about 570 mm. The bike feels comfortable to me when riding everywhere except when riding singletrack downhill.

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How long did you give it between switching?

 

about a month between the 90 mm and the 50 mm stem and bar combo. And about two months between the 50 mm stem and switching back to the 90 mm stem and 740 mm bars.

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Going from a Titan sport to a Silverback Sesta is quite an upgrade the Sesta is a light fast dual I have only had a quick spin on 1 and was very impressed with the accelleration but being a race bike it could feel a little twitchy but I am sure when you get the feel for it it is going to blow you away.

 

I am very impressed with the Sesta so far, I just feel like I'm struggling to gain any confidence to go faster on the downhill stuff.

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about a month between the 90 mm and the 50 mm stem and bar combo. And about two months between the 50 mm stem and switching back to the 90 mm stem and 740 mm bars.

I'd advise to go back to the 50/780 combo and slowly test the bars at narrower widths (move the grips in). What you're describing sounds very much like your weight is too far forward and you're feeling like you could be going OTB. Especially because you're on a large frame. Shorter stem should sort that out pretty quickly. That, in conjunction with a fork that sounds as if it's incorrectly set up would be a recipe for disaster

Edited by Cptmayhem
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I'd advise to go back to the 50/780 combo and slowly test the bars at narrower widths (move the grips in). What you're describing sounds very much like your weight is too far forward and you're feeling like you could be going OTB. Especially because you're on a large frame. Shorter stem should sort that out pretty quickly. That, in conjunction with a fork that sounds as if it's incorrectly set up would be a recipe for disaster

That was why I went with the 50/780 combo initially to move the bars a bit closer. I'll test the 50mm stem over time while moving the grips in slowly.

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