The Veganism Thread

[Milkman]

Go to both rural and even more urbanized Vietnam and see what people were traditionally eating. People in rural areas of 3rd world countries aren't gorging on salmon and cream cheese bagels for breakfast or fillet for dinner. The bulk of their diet is plant based. 

 

And again, I'm not speaking to those people.

 

The question you should rather be asking and answering is "Why am I not vegan, knowing what I know". 

 

The short answer : I enjoy my meat too much  .

[100Tours]

There's no epidemiological data proving that vegans suffer from 'malnutrition'. What do you even mean by that?  

 

I would say read the whole thread..

 

But how about the criminal convictions in Australia and the UK for people who tried to bring up their children as vegan and stunted their growth as a result of not feeding them properly.

 

That and the whole field of research into riboflavin and B vitamin deficiency would not exist if it wasn't for vegans. 

 

I very carefully said 'increased risk', so it is not automatic or universal. But it is a very real concern if you're following a vegan diet.

[Milkman]

Kidding aside, I have lived on a farm almost my whole life ( except school and studies ). 

 

I have raised and slaughtered my own animals , hunted and killed wild animals to eat them and drank milk , made cheese and butter from my own animals my whole life .

 

I very much agree with you that people should be more aware of where their food comes from , but I don't agree with your view on the nutritional side of being vegan vs being omnivorous.

 

I am also not in agreement  with you that us as humans consuming animal products is the reason our planet is getting f%$ked . That I believe we as humans are doing by other means - mostly population growth ? But that's part of another discussion .

Edited August 28, 2019 by Milkman

[Odinson]

The short answer : I enjoy my meat too much  .

 

Do you think that your enjoyment is more important than the lives of the animals that have to die for your meals and the effects that it has on planetary health? 

[Odinson]

Kidding aside, I have lived on a farm almost my whole life ( except school and studies ). 

 

I have raised and slaughtered my own animals , hunted and killed wild animals to eat them and drank milk , made cheese and butter from my own animals my whole life .

 

I very much agree with you that people should be more aware of where their food comes from , but I don't agree with your view on the nutritional side of being vegan vs being omnivorous.

 

I am also not in agreement that the fact that us as humans consumeing animal products is the reason our planet is getting f%$ked . That I believe we as humans are doing by other means - mostly population growth ? But that's part of another discussion .

 

Boet, you and I are in the same. I'm also an ex-farm boy. Did all the things you've done. Doesn't mean that we have to continue doing that just because it's the way it's always been done. We can leave the animals be and still live our lives healthily and happily. 

 

Thing is, the world population is what it is. We can't change that, only deal with how it is and how we can make it work moving forward. 

[Odinson]

I would say read the whole thread..

 

But how about the criminal convictions in Australia and the UK for people who tried to bring up their children as vegan and stunted their growth as a result of not feeding them properly.

 

That and the whole field of research into riboflavin and B vitamin deficiency would not exist if it wasn't for vegans. 

 

I very carefully said 'increased risk', so it is not automatic or universal. But it is a very real concern if you're following a vegan diet.

 

You're conflating veganism with child neglect brought on by poor diet and who knows what else.  

[100Tours]

You're conflating veganism with child neglect brought on by poor diet and who knows what else.  

 

No I'm not - this is something that is happening to vegan families from time to time. I know more than one family who have experienced birth defects on a vegan diet despite quite some pleading with them to give it up while pregnant.

 

Edit - you have previously argued that veganism is not about health. I accept that. But it does interfere with the ideal of having a vegan globe.

Edited August 28, 2019 by 100Tours

[Milkman]

Any person reading this thread can go vegan. Don't build it up in your mind as some 'white privilege' thing. It just isn't. Most of the basic staples are vegan. Fruits 'n veg, grains, etc. You make it as expensive as you want it to be. 

 

When there's a will, there's a way. 

 

 

You know that every person reading on this thread is actually privileged right ?

[100Tours]

You're conflating veganism with child neglect brought on by poor diet and who knows what else.  

 

From NIH.gov  

Groups at Risk of Riboflavin Inadequacy

 

The following groups are among those most likely to have inadequate riboflavin status.

 

Vegetarian athletes

Exercise produces stress in the metabolic pathways that use riboflavin [20]. The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, Dietitians of Canada, and the American College of Sports Medicine state that vegetarian athletes are at risk of riboflavin deficiency because of their increased need for this nutrient and because some vegetarians exclude all animal products (including milk, yogurt, cheese, and eggs), which tend to be good sources of riboflavin, from their diets [21]. These associations recommend that vegetarian athletes consult a sports dietitian to avoid this potential problem.

 

Pregnant and lactating women and their infants

Pregnant or lactating women who rarely consume meats or dairy products (such as those living in developing countries and some vegetarians in the United States) are at risk of riboflavin deficiency, which can have adverse effects on the health of both mothers and their infants [2]. Riboflavin deficiency during pregnancy, for example, can increase the risk of preeclampsia [22]. The limited evidence on the benefits of riboflavin supplements during pregnancy in both developed and developing countries is mixed [23-25].

Riboflavin intakes during pregnancy have a positive association with infant birth weight and length [26]. Infants of mothers with riboflavin deficiency or low dietary intakes (less than 1.2 mg/day) during pregnancy have a higher risk of deficiency and of certain birth defects (such as outflow tract defects of the heart) [24,27]. However, maternal riboflavin intake has no association with the risk of orofacial clefts in infants [28].

In well-nourished women, riboflavin concentrations in breast milk range from 180 to 800 mcg/L and concentrations of riboflavin in breast milk increase over time [29,30]. In developing countries, in contrast, riboflavin levels in breast milk range from 160 to 220 mcg/L [29].

 

People who are vegan and/or consume little milk

In people who eat meat and dairy products, these foods contribute a substantial proportion of riboflavin in the diet. For this reason, people who live in developing countries and have limited intakes of meat and dairy products have an increased risk of riboflavin deficiency [31,32]. Vegans and those who consume little milk in developed countries are also at risk of riboflavin inadequacy [33-37].

Edited August 28, 2019 by 100Tours

[Milkman]

Do you think that your enjoyment is more important than the lives of the animals that have to die for your meals and the effects that it has on planetary health? 

 

 

I did say it was the short answer . The long answer I have explained in previous posts .

[Odinson]

You know that every person reading on this thread is actually privileged right ?

Without getting too ‘woke’, privilege is a spectrum. We all fall on it somewhere and it’s often the more privileged that raise the ‘privilege’ defence.

[Odinson]

No I'm not - this is something that is happening to vegan families from time to time. I know more than one family who have experienced birth defects on a vegan diet despite quite some pleading with them to give it up while pregnant.

 

Edit - you have previously argued that veganism is not about health. I accept that. But it does interfere with the ideal of having a vegan globe.

Could you elaborate on the birth defects you claim to have witnessed.

[jimmycool]

I've been reading this thread and wondering. If a South African vegan was to be dropped off 100km outside of the city they live in today with a knife and a tent and nothing else and had to stay there for 3 weeks. Would they survive? What would they eat?

I've been scratching my brain trying to think if they could survive but I am not so sure.

[100Tours]

Could you elaborate on the birth defects you claim to have witnessed.

 

impaired brain function. it is well documented

[Milkman]

Without getting too ‘woke’, privilege is a spectrum. We all fall on it somewhere and it’s often the more privileged that raise the ‘privilege’ defence.

 

 

Not to derail this thread , but being able to read , having electricity and technology to debate on the interwebs AND the free time to do so , and riding bicycles for fun - yes I think we are pretty privileged . And that was not said as a defence - I was pointing out that you are contradicting yourself .

[Odinson]

impaired brain function. it is well documented

So you personally know more than one family who had a child born with impaired brain function due to a ‘vegan diet’? I mean, the odds of that.