The Veganism Thread

[Eldron]

I spent some time in a clients abbatoir once. Its nasty right, all bloody and smelly. But did it put me off from eating a healthy balanced diet? Nope.

 

My point is that all this propaganda of dogs on the barbecue and nasty slaughter houses will have a very small impact on peoples mindsets. It's just silly. Going vegan should be a personal choice. What other people eat is surely their choice. Surely you don't score extra vegan points if you convert a meat eater? Hope not.

Extra vegan points? That's a laughable and militant concept.

 

There is enough evidence that reduceding your meat input is better for the environment (and better for your health depending on how much you eat).

 

If you have children then eating less meat should be your choice - nobody should have to convince you.

 

Recently the diet to feed 10 billion people had very little (but some) meat in it. That was supposed to be the best health/environmental diet.

[GrahamS2]

OK so what did you mean by "see the world in the way vegans do". How do you think vegans see the world?

My experience is that they feel no-one at all should be eating meat. That is not realistic or achievable, and the general approach to this message definitely just breeds resentment.

 

A thread like this is a better approach (if a overlook the few propoganda posts). I for one will always eat meat, but I'm now much more aware of what I consume and where it came from. I've also realised that beef farming is a massive issue and is not sustainable in it's current form. As such my beef consumption has reduced quite a bit and I intend to educate those around me on this.

[Odinson]

My experience is that they feel no-one at all should be eating meat. That is not realistic or achievable, and the general approach to this message definitely just breeds resentment.

 

A thread like this is a better approach (if a overlook the few propoganda posts). I for one will always eat meat, but I'm now much more aware of what I consume and where it came from. I've also realised that beef farming is a massive issue and is not sustainable in it's current form. As such my beef consumption has reduced quite a bit and I intend to educate those around me on this.

 

I think it is important to be cognizant that that 'piece of meat' on one's plate is not just 'meat', but is a part of an animal that was bred into existence for the sole purpose of being killed and who lived a short, unnatural and miserable existence. That such animals are part of a larger system that is compromising planetary health, human health and is neither sustainable, nor ethical. 

 

I think the day will come where we no longer have to kill animals for food - whether that be through cellular agriculture or otherwise. Unfortunately, we don't have the luxury to wait around for that to be commercially viable on a global scale. Thus, it is important that people are educated on the need to minimize as far as possible or eliminate animal products from their diet. 

 

The phrase 'vegan propaganda' has popped up on this thread a few times. Mind explaining what you understand as 'vegan propaganda'? 

[Patchelicious]

My experience is that they feel no-one at all should be eating meat. That is not realistic or achievable, and the general approach to this message definitely just breeds resentment.

 

A thread like this is a better approach (if a overlook the few propoganda posts). I for one will always eat meat, but I'm now much more aware of what I consume and where it came from. I've also realised that beef farming is a massive issue and is not sustainable in it's current form. As such my beef consumption has reduced quite a bit and I intend to educate those around me on this.

 

Agreed. I reduced my meat consumption because of the data and some conversations posted on this thread.

 

I did not reduce my meat consumptions because of slaughter house videos posted here or PETA braaing dogs. 

[GrahamS2]

The phrase 'vegan propaganda' has popped up on this thread a few times. Mind explaining what you understand as 'vegan propaganda'? 

Content with a shock value rather than an educational purpose. Like a dog on a braai, for example. And it often results in the intended message being overlooked.

 

The beef farming example is a good one. I know that cows die in a slaughter house, and I know what it looks and smells like in there. Showing me videos of some mexican guy killing a cow with a hammer isn't going to make me reconsider my beef consumption whatsoever. On the flip side, showing stats on the impact of large scale beef farming and the impact on the environment, and having a balanced, reasonable debate about it gets one thinking... 

Edited January 29, 2019 by GrahamS2

[Patchelicious]

I think it is important to be cognizant that that 'piece of meat' on one's plate is not just 'meat', but is a part of an animal that was bred into existence for the sole purpose of being killed and who lived a short, unnatural and miserable existence. That such animals are part of a larger system that is compromising planetary health, human health and is neither sustainable, nor ethical. 

 

I think the day will come where we no longer have to kill animals for food - whether that be through cellular agriculture or otherwise. Unfortunately, we don't have the luxury to wait around for that to be commercially viable on a global scale. Thus, it is important that people are educated on the need to minimize as far as possible or eliminate animal products from their diet. 

 

The phrase 'vegan propaganda' has popped up on this thread a few times. Mind explaining what you understand as 'vegan propaganda'? 

 

I think perhaps the terminology is incorrect. Perhaps a better way saying it is media, be it print or video that is created to shock. You know that some of this stuff is done to purely be shocking, you have even said that some of PETAs tactics are not cool in your view.

[Odinson]

Content with a shock value rather than an educational purpose. Like a dog on a braai, for example. And it often results in the intended message being overlooked.

 

The beef farming example is a good one. I know that cows die in a slaughter house, and I know what it looks and smells like in there. Showing me videos of some mexican guy killing a cow with a hammer isn't going to make me reconsider my beef consumption whatsoever. On the flip side, showing stats on the impact of large scale beef farming and the impact on the environment, and having a balanced, reasonable debate about it gets one thinking... 

 

 

I think perhaps the terminology is incorrect. Perhaps a better way saying it is media, be it print or video that is created to shock. You know that some of this stuff is done to purely be shocking, you have even said that some of PETAs tactics are not cool in your view.

 

I get what you're saying. 

 

I think tactics like Peta's dog braai is a double-edged sword. On one hand, it gets media attention, because rags and websites want sensational content to get reader engagement. I think that Peta's reasoning is that they can get a foot in the door and drive awareness from there. On the other, it has the potential to close people off from the message or give folks ammo to brand 'vegans' as dog BBQing freaks.

 

It's really difficult to gauge what the net effect is at the end of the day. 

[GrahamS2]

I get what you're saying. 

 

I think tactics like Peta's dog braai is a double-edged sword. On one hand, it gets media attention, because rags and websites want sensational content to get reader engagement. I think that Peta's reasoning is that they can get a foot in the door and drive awareness from there. On the other, it has the potential to close people off from the message or give folks ammo to brand 'vegans' as dog BBQing freaks.

 

It's really difficult to gauge what the net effect is at the end of the day. 

It depends on their goal I guess. Trying to shock people into being so disgusted that they immediately stop eating meat will achieve limited results IMO. Educating people on the benefits of reducing meat consumption, understanding the source of meat, and selecting alternative meats to beef, will have a broader acceptance and yield real results.

 

The problem is really when the word 'vegan' or 'vegetarian' is introduced - zero animal products or meat. The message is that it's an all or nothing approach with no tolerance for half measures. You're either with us or against us. But in reality very, very few people will ever even try to live like that, or stick to it for any considerable length of time if they do.    

[Odinson]

It depends on their goal I guess. Trying to shock people into being so disgusted that they immediately stop eating meat will achieve limited results IMO. Educating people on the benefits of reducing meat consumption, understanding the source of meat, and selecting alternative meats to beef, will have a broader acceptance and yield real results.

 

The problem is really when the word 'vegan' or 'vegetarian' is introduced - zero animal products or meat. The message is that it's an all or nothing approach with no tolerance for half measures. You're either with us or against us. But in reality very, very few people will ever even try to live like that, or stick to it for any considerable length of time if they do.    

 

Here's a question. Taking the social dynamics that you alluded to out of the question, do you consider it fundamentally wrong that humans not exploit other animals for food, entertainment and other purposes, if we know that it is not necessary to do so? 

[Goodbadugly]

I think it is important to be cognizant that that 'piece of meat' on one's plate is not just 'meat', but is a part of an animal that was bred into existence for the sole purpose of being killed and who lived a short, unnatural and miserable existence. That such animals are part of a larger system that is compromising planetary health, human health and is neither sustainable, nor ethical. 

 

I think the day will come where we no longer have to kill animals for food - whether that be through cellular agriculture or otherwise. Unfortunately, we don't have the luxury to wait around for that to be commercially viable on a global scale. Thus, it is important that people are educated on the need to minimize as far as possible or eliminate animal products from their diet. 

 

The phrase 'vegan propaganda' has popped up on this thread a few times. Mind explaining what you understand as 'vegan propaganda'? 

When you love someone it is easy to overlook obvious (for others) flaws.

If you believe in a certain cause, the same applies. Take Islamic suicide bombers see the 70 virgins on the other side waiting for them. Other people see the obvious flaws in this belief.

 

Before and during the second world war anti-Semitic movies were screened in Germany. This is called propaganda. They even had a minister of propaganda. Goebbels. Millions believed it. For the outsider the flaws were obvious.

 

Like said before diet choices need not be binary. Posting youtube videos of cows being slaughtered is not the norm. That is why others see it as propaganda. Posting a study by a few okes lacks perspective. You have already posted your scorn for dietitians. Once you start to learn the difference between knowing something and understanding concepts, you might see it in a different way. Then again, some people never understand. 

 

Diet info has a very short half life. Meaning that diets prescribed 10 years ago might be contentious today. One prof once said that he had failed a few students for facts that we know now to be wrong. History has a cruel way of repeating itself. It is like a swinging pendulum. 

 

Trying to push a certain agenda with shocking media is called propaganda. A prime example of that is the Gillette ad. Suddenly masculinity is toxic. Because a few assholes beat their wives, trying to engage with nice girl is now not cool.

[GrahamS2]

Here's a question. Taking the social dynamics that you alluded to out of the question, do you consider it fundamentally wrong that humans not exploit other animals for food, entertainment and other purposes, if we know that it is not necessary to do so? 

No, I don't feel it's fundamentally wrong, but that's a deep rabbit hole to go down without drawing a line somewhere. How about horse riding? How about keeping dogs and cats as pets? How about game viewing? All those exploit animals for entertainment... As for what you choose to eat or not to eat, well that's your business entirely. 

 

But I do believe that meat is an integral part of the human diet, and eating it is necessary.

Edited January 29, 2019 by GrahamS2

[Odinson]

When you love someone it is easy to overlook obvious (for others) flaws.

If you believe in a certain cause, the same applies. Take Islamic suicide bombers see the 70 virgins on the other side waiting for them. Other people see the obvious flaws in this belief.

 

Before and during the second world war anti-Semitic movies were screened in Germany. This is called propaganda. They even had a minister of propaganda. Goebbels. Millions believed it. For the outsider the flaws were obvious.

 

Like said before diet choices need not be binary. Posting youtube videos of cows being slaughtered is not the norm. That is why others see it as propaganda. Posting a study by a few okes lacks perspective. You have already posted your scorn for dietitians. Once you start to learn the difference between knowing something and understanding concepts, you might see it in a different way. Then again, some people never understand. 

 

Diet info has a very short half life. Meaning that diets prescribed 10 years ago might be contentious today. One prof once said that he had failed a few students for facts that we know now to be wrong. History has a cruel way of repeating itself. It is like a swinging pendulum. 

 

Trying to push a certain agenda with shocking media is called propaganda. A prime example of that is the Gillette ad. Suddenly masculinity is toxic. Because a few assholes beat their wives, trying to engage with nice girl is now not cool.

 

Thanks for taking the time to write a detailed reply. 

 

I think that many who use the term 'vegan propaganda' miss one crucial element: the deception. 

 

The Nazi's (I could bring up Godwin's Law at this point) deceived the German populace into believing that the Jews were the source of their woes. This was obviously not factually correct. 

 

Does slaughterhouse footage / footage of circus animals being abused / footage of abusive farming practices / etc. used by 'vegans' attempt to deceive people? If someone went out of their way to actually stage and film a scene of animal abuse, distribute it and claim it to be true footage from a farm or whatever, that could be propaganda. Lifting the veil on the horrors that we collectively visit upon the animals and this earth is not propaganda. 

[Chris_]

No, I don't feel it's fundamentally wrong, but that's a deep rabbit hole to go down without drawing a line somewhere. How about horse riding? How about keeping dogs and cats as pets? How about game viewing? All those exploit animals for entertainment... As for what you choose to eat or not to eat, well that's your business entirely. 

 

But I do believe that meat is an integral part of the human diet, and eating it is necessary.

 

As far as I've read and learned a lot of the impact of typical meat focused diet is exactly this. Its time to stop saying the above and realize the greater impact on the world. Its not 'I' anymore, its 'we'.

[Odinson]

No, I don't feel it's fundamentally wrong, but that's a deep rabbit hole to go down without drawing a line somewhere. How about horse riding? How about keeping dogs and cats as pets? How about game viewing? All those exploit animals for entertainment... As for what you choose to eat or not to eat, well that's your business entirely. 

 

But I do believe that meat is an integral part of the human diet, and eating it is necessary.

 

Those are exactly the questions that veganism try to address. 

 

Again, diet choice isn't just someone's choice. We're ~7 billion people who are trying to share a limited number of resources. A growing global middle class who all want to eat a Western-style diet is only going to exacerbate the problems of climate change, human health and the plight of the animals. All of the recent reports that came out on this topic stated clearly that we can just sit back and have folks eat whatever they please. 

 

Regarding your final statement, not to sound condescending, but you're fundamentally wrong on that and I think you probably know it. I've posted this elsewhere, but I'll do so again: 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864

 

 

 

Position of the American Dietetic Association: vegetarian diets.

Craig WJ1, Mangels AR; American Dietetic Association.

Author information

 

Abstract

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat (including fowl) or seafood, or products containing those foods. This article reviews the current data related to key nutrients for vegetarians including protein, n-3 fatty acids, iron, zinc, iodine, calcium, and vitamins D and B-12. A vegetarian diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, supplements or fortified foods can provide useful amounts of important nutrients. An evidence- based review showed that vegetarian diets can be nutritionally adequate in pregnancy and result in positive maternal and infant health outcomes. The results of an evidence-based review showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with a lower risk of death from ischemic heart disease. Vegetarians also appear to have lower low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower rates of hypertension and type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. Furthermore, vegetarians tend to have a lower body mass index and lower overall cancer rates. Features of a vegetarian diet that may reduce risk of chronic disease include lower intakes of saturated fat and cholesterol and higher intakes of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, nuts, soy products, fiber, and phytochemicals. The variability of dietary practices among vegetarians makes individual assessment of dietary adequacy essential. In addition to assessing dietary adequacy, food and nutrition professionals can also play key roles in educating vegetarians about sources of specific nutrients, food purchase and preparation, and dietary modifications to meet their needs.

[Chris_]

When you love someone it is easy to overlook obvious (for others) flaws.

If you believe in a certain cause, the same applies. Take Islamic suicide bombers see the 70 virgins on the other side waiting for them. Other people see the obvious flaws in this belief.

 

Before and during the second world war anti-Semitic movies were screened in Germany. This is called propaganda. They even had a minister of propaganda. Goebbels. Millions believed it. For the outsider the flaws were obvious.

 

Like said before diet choices need not be binary. Posting youtube videos of cows being slaughtered is not the norm. That is why others see it as propaganda. Posting a study by a few okes lacks perspective. You have already posted your scorn for dietitians. Once you start to learn the difference between knowing something and understanding concepts, you might see it in a different way. Then again, some people never understand. 

 

Diet info has a very short half life. Meaning that diets prescribed 10 years ago might be contentious today. One prof once said that he had failed a few students for facts that we know now to be wrong. History has a cruel way of repeating itself. It is like a swinging pendulum. 

 

Trying to push a certain agenda with shocking media is called propaganda. A prime example of that is the Gillette ad. Suddenly masculinity is toxic. Because a few assholes beat their wives, trying to engage with nice girl is now not cool.

 

Do you think the (western) world has become too sanitized as to where their food comes from?

 

Personally I think we've very cleanly disassociated foods from their source. If you want to slag your own animal in the wilderness, blood guts and all... hit it. If you want to buy your ‘meat’ vacuum packed and sealed without trace of blood nor owner, perhaps you should not be allowed to be so enraged when the 'reality' is shown to you. I don't know, when does someones ugly truth become anothers propaganda?

 

Interesting post you wrote though.

[GrahamS2]

Those are exactly the questions that veganism try to address. 

 

Again, diet choice isn't just someone's choice. We're ~7 billion people who are trying to share a limited number of resources. A growing global middle class who all want to eat a Western-style diet is only going to exacerbate the problems of climate change, human health and the plight of the animals. All of the recent reports that came out on this topic stated clearly that we can just sit back and have folks eat whatever they please. 

 

Regarding your final statement, not to sound condescending, but you're fundamentally wrong on that and I think you probably know it. I've posted this elsewhere, but I'll do so again: 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864

I actually agree with your first paragraph, and maybe I phrased my comment wrong. My choice to eat meat is my business, as your choice to eat plant-based is yours. But that doesn't abdicate me from any responsibility with regards to reasonable consumption and a balanced diet. I'm not saying "screw the world, eat what you like".

 

Answer me this: Taking the emotive side out of it, would there still be such a problem if everyone ate some meat as part of a balanced diet? 

 

As for the study you posted, we debated this on page 1 so I'm not going to get into it again. The problem is eating the average American diet and overall consumption, not solely meat. Meat as part of balanced diet is just as healthy as a plant based diet.