The Veganism Thread

[Patchelicious]

Patch, I get what you're saying. I truly do. 

 

I think perhaps you need to consider a few things: 

1. Veganism is not about vegans - see below; 

2. You seem to consider activism as binary - an action will either be detrimental or beneficial to veganism. Having spent a lot of time looking into this and even based on interactions with folks, people have very disparate motivators. I've met vegans that are almost apathetic to animals, but are still vegan for other reasons or just because they can accept that animals have a basic right to life and dignity. On that basis, people react differently to activism. You might consider Peta's actions as detrimental, but it just might help a few folks open their eyes to look more closely at their relationship with animals. 

 

I honestly dont see it as binary. If its coming across like that, I might need to change my tactic.

 

I see it on a scale of effectiveness. What the desired outcome was, is a measurement of effectiveness. Hence me asking the question, if the desired outcome was to was to make a statement, then this PETA action (note I have not called it a stunt as others have) was very effective.

 

If the desired outcome was to create sympathy for PETA and their cause from people who have not already bought into it, I think it was much less effective.

 

So while I agree this action might have made helped "a few folk" open their eyes to their relationship with animals, was it worth the costs of the many who have taken a step backwards now. I believe that if that more focus should be given to convincing the many than causing outrage for the few. Edit: I also know that you need to have a multi-pronged marketing approach, people need to however understand that there is tipping point when the messaging gets very strong.

 

Its also important to note, that stating that this PETA action was perhaps not the best tactic doesn't take away from their better adverts like the sad pig one I spoke of, not does it mean you are pro meater eater all of a sudden. We need to open to suggestions if we are to expect others to be open to our views.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Patchelicious

[Patchelicious]

I get where you're coming from. The idea is simply that we cannot, as a society, say that it is a 'personal choice' and 'you do you'. Has a single sheep, cow or chicken ever consented to their death at a slaughterhouse? Why are only we allowed to choose, but those who die by our hand do not. 

 

We now need to start making mindful choices that will benefit us, the animals and the planet. 

Agreed. 

 

Its just a lot more challenging for some than others, we need to understand and acknowledge this.

[Patchelicious]

Some, but not all. 

 

It's important for 'vegans' to be cognizant of their own carnism and their past. I would've probably had a moerse hissy fit if someone judge me for eating meat back in the day. That type of approach will only breed resentment. 

We agree again.

[Mudsimus]

Agreed.

 

Its just a lot more challenging for some than others, we need to understand and acknowledge this.

Its not challenging. A challenge is to quit smoking. Including meat in my diet is a conscious well thought out decision. I eat healthier than most vegans. Just because I eat meat doesn't mean I stuff my face with t bones and ribs every night. I eat red meat maybe once a month. I even eat vegan dishes on a regular basis. But I have absolutely no guilt in eating healthy meat dishes.

[Eldron]

Much like all meat eaters are summed up as blood thirsty, animal killers by the vegan brigade?

Not at all. I'm a meat eating vegan supporter. I have not suggeated what a meat eaters opinion is (as far as I remember).

 

A big part of the problem is the constant us and them situation. Like all other things this is not a binary situation.

[Chris_]

Those are not their only two options. Why does this have to be so binary.

 

I am on your side here. Creating devision and anger is not the right way changing peoples minds in your favour. 

 

I know we're on the same side here, I'm not looking for a fight either, don't mistake honest questioning for inciteful tactics. You mentioned in a later post the tipping point between these two binary options. I'm only wondering where you would put the line seeing as you brought it up, perhaps you had a clearer answer. Sad pig pic was a good example.

[Mudsimus]

A big part of the problem is the constant us and them situation. Like all other things this is not a binary situation.

Be honest, who created the us and them situation? (Wasn't Pink Floyd)

 

How many pro vegan memes trying to take a swipe at meat eaters do you see in the media?

[Chris_]

Really? Isn't that what humans have been doing for thousands and thousands of years? I grew up on a farm, I slaughtered and ate many sheep, I cleaned and ate fish all my life. I really don't get it why vegans think this should change mindsets.

 

Not what we're trying to pin down right now, but remember many thousands of years ago when humans were hunting and gathering or small scale farming, our population and different way of living allowed us to hunt animals without rendering them extinct almost instantly or changing whole environments in doing so. The problem with your scenario is not just meat eaters, its the number of meat eaters today.

[Patchelicious]

I know we're on the same side here, I'm not looking for a fight either, don't mistake honest questioning for inciteful tactics. You mentioned in a later post the tipping point between these two binary options. I'm only wondering where you would put the line seeing as you brought it up, perhaps you had a clearer answer. Sad pig pic was a good example.

I did not say that there is a tipping point between these two options, I said there is a tipping point when the messaging gets too strong.

 

But again, that’s my position, others are ok to create “collateral damage” to the cause for their particular area of the spectrums point to be heard.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Patchelicious

[Odinson]

Last night's dinner: 

 

Bok Choy with steamed tempeh, brown shrooms, some red bell peppers, in a garlic/soy/ginger sauce. I don't usually eat white rice, but we had some basmati gathering dust in the cupboard, so we threw that in. Very, very yum! We were all out of miso, so just chucked some extra soy sauce. 

 

 

P.S. Yes, there's no place mat. I'm a barbarian. 

[Odinson]

Be honest, who created the us and them situation? (Wasn't Pink Floyd)

 

How many pro vegan memes trying to take a swipe at meat eaters do you see in the media?

 

Dude, the internet is littered with pro-this and anti-that memes.

 

No one should use internet memes to inform life choices or take it as a reflection of real social interactions. 

[Eldron]

By and large this thread has been really good - the only time it flares up is when people believe the memes instead of asking actual humans or someone starts saying things like vegans this and carnivores that...

 

There is a life lesson in there somewhere. When I doubt believe your experience in real life not what you've read in social media.

[Eldron]

You know thats not true. Lets not go down the road of you making up my positions and world views again.

 

If you want clarity, then ask.

 

I have edited my post to avoid these micro triggers.

OK so what did you mean by "see the world in the way vegans do". How do you think vegans see the world?

[Patchelicious]

OK so what did you mean by "see the world in the way vegans do". How do you think vegans see the world?

As I said in that same post, I edited my post to be more accurate. My original statement was not a good one. A core word also being left out is “the same way”.

 

I think the protesters behind that dog braai, see the world in a similar way that other people who are ‘extreme’ in their views do. Where the argument is about those who don’t agree with you, often to the detriment of the core cause, hence the “see it in the same way” part.

 

As for your question on how do vegans see the world, I don’t know, I’m sure there are multitudes of different views.

[Eldron]

I spent some time in a clients abbatoir once. Its nasty right, all bloody and smelly. But did it put me off from eating a healthy balanced diet? Nope.

 

My point is that all this propaganda of dogs on the barbecue and nasty slaughter houses will have a very small impact on peoples mindsets. It's just silly. Going vegan should be a personal choice. What other people eat is surely their choice. Surely you don't score extra vegan points if you convert a meat eater? Hope not.

Extra vegan points? That's a laughable and militant concept.

 

There is enough evidence that reduceding your meat input is better for the environment (and better for your health depending on how much you eat).

 

If you have children then eating less meat should be your choice - nobody should have to convince you.

 

Recently the diet to feed 10 billion people had very little (but some) meat in it. That was supposed to be the best health/environmental diet.

[GrahamS2]

OK so what did you mean by "see the world in the way vegans do". How do you think vegans see the world?

My experience is that they feel no-one at all should be eating meat. That is not realistic or achievable, and the general approach to this message definitely just breeds resentment.

 

A thread like this is a better approach (if a overlook the few propoganda posts). I for one will always eat meat, but I'm now much more aware of what I consume and where it came from. I've also realised that beef farming is a massive issue and is not sustainable in it's current form. As such my beef consumption has reduced quite a bit and I intend to educate those around me on this.