The Veganism Thread

[100Tours]

You’ve honestly lost me on that second paragraph. Mind elaborating a bit?

 

You are conflating ethics and beliefs. You believe that we shouldn't eat animals. If you don't beleive that then there is no ethical problem.

 

 

On the second point, have a read here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19562864/

 

It is a nicely written statement by I'm sure a lovely bunch of people. Any facts?

Edited August 5, 2019 by 100Tours

[Odinson]

Fair enough - I don't believe in God or in any grand plan that we are or are not part of. I'm a Darwinian - we've evolved inside of our ecosystem, and more recently yes we've made a bit of a mess of it. We haven't quite figured out how not to eat animals yet, and I think your vegan beliefs are not based on reliable science.

 

From the reading I have done on the subject, being vegan increases your risk of retinol and B12 deficiencies, which means brain development suffers. There was a recent court case in France where a vegan couple were tried for the murder of their daughter because they did not supplement her vegan diet (were they not educated enough or sophisticated enough to be successful vegans perhaps?). Meat eating people don't seem to have the same issue.

 

Maybe you can explain why it seems difficult for vegans to manage their chosen diet in a way that meat consuming people don't?

 

I've no idea why you decided to bring a religious element into the discussion, but okay. 

 

I'm not quite sure how you've arrived at your last conclusion. 

 

I'd advise you to perhaps read this thread from the beginning. I've detailed how vegans are at a significantly lower risk for all of the top killers of humans (i.e. CVD, diabetes, obesity, types of cancer, etc.). Both epidemiology and mechanistic studies bear this out. 

 

The case you refer to was child neglect. 

[Odinson]

You are conflating ethics and beliefs. You believe that we shouldn't eat animals. If you don't beleive that then there is no ethical problem.

 

 

 

It is a nicely written statement by I'm sure a lovely bunch of people. Any facts?

 

How do you think they arrived at that conclusion? 

[100Tours]

How do you think they arrived at that conclusion? 

 

They're not doctors or scientists. I have no idea how they came up with it.

[100Tours]

The case you refer to was child neglect. 

 

..but all they did was attempt to be vegan

[Odinson]

They're not doctors or scientists. I have no idea how they came up with it.

 

So, you've no idea how they arrived at the conclusion, therefore you dismiss it out of hand? 

[100Tours]

I'd advise you to perhaps read this thread from the beginning. I've detailed how vegans are at a significantly lower risk for all of the top killers of humans (i.e. CVD, diabetes, obesity, types of cancer, etc.). Both epidemiology and mechanistic studies bear this out. 

 

Thank you for assuming my ignorance :-)

 

There appears to be evidence of an equivalent set of vegan-related health conditions (brain development, low sperm counts, thyroid suppression, liver-toxicity, low libido, low iron, etc.), and we have a lot less experience of vegan health histories, and almost no experience of what happens to vegans as they get older (technically it is a recent dietary fad, only gaining popularity from the late 80's). There are no vegan infants therefore that have reached the age of 40.

 

The difference is that veganism seems to relate to issues of deficiency, while the animal-based diet issues are typically issues of excess (CVD, obesity and diabetes being good examples). I can eat less animal product, but you have to fill in the gaps as a vegan - and often the only way to do this seems to be to revert to animal products.

[Patchelicious]

So, you've no idea how they arrived at the conclusion, therefore you dismiss it out of hand? 

Wouldn't you do the same if it was a counter to your argument?

[100Tours]

More neglect?

A couple who raised their daughter on a strict vegan diet could face questioning from police after she was admitted to hospital with a degenerative bone condition which left her with the spine of an 80-year-old woman. 

Doctors treating the 12-year-old are likely to face pressure to report the pair to police and social workers after criticism from nutritionists concerned that the couple's commitment to veganism took precedent over their daughter's wellbeing.

 

In 2001, a vegan couple from west London were sentenced to three years' community rehabilitation after admitting they had starved their baby to death.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2094460/Couple-face-questioning-after-vegan-daughter-suffers-bone-disease.html

[Odinson]

Thank you for assuming my ignorance :-)

 

There appears to be evidence of an equivalent set of vegan-related health conditions (brain development, low sperm counts, thyroid suppression, liver-toxicity, low libido, low iron, etc.), and we have a lot less experience of vegan health histories, and almost no experience of what happens to vegans as they get older (technically it is a recent dietary fad, only gaining popularity from the late 80's). There are no vegan infants therefore that have reached the age of 40.

 

The difference is that veganism seems to relate to issues of deficiency, while the animal-based diet issues are typically issues of excess (CVD, obesity and diabetes being good examples). I can eat less animal product, but you have to fill in the gaps as a vegan - and often the only way to do this seems to be to revert to animal products.

 

There are numerous lifelong vegans. There are also numerous populations of people that consumed a largely plant-based diet (i.e. >95% calories from whole plant sources). Do you have evidence that those groups were riddled with these conditions? 

[100Tours]

B12 is not made by animals. Made by bacteria.

 

I went and checked up on this. The bacteria that make B12 are found inside of animals. I wish I had made that up. 

 

I'm sure we both have better things to do. But I think that outright veganism is dangerous, which is why I'm commenting.

 

We eat way too much meat - one version of the recommended meat intake is 2 cigarette-box sized portions a week (from the American college of cardiology), and especially in RSA this is an issue.  We are however able to develop (brain and body) as we do because we eat animals - at least until we perfect the nutritional pill (and we haven't got it right yet - thus the dangerous comment). Until then veganism is just you experimenting on yourself. You're allowed to do that, but go easy on expecting the same from others. 

Edited August 5, 2019 by 100Tours

[100Tours]

There are numerous lifelong vegans. There are also numerous populations of people that consumed a largely plant-based diet (i.e. >95% calories from whole plant sources). Do you have evidence that those groups were riddled with these conditions? 

 

lifelong as in from birth? I don't think there's anyone who is over 40 who had vegan parents.

 

And 95% is not 100% - there are no vegan cultures?

Edited August 5, 2019 by 100Tours

[Mudsimus]

We eat way too much meat - one version of the recommended meat intake is 2 cigarette-box sized portions a week

Its a common vegan misconception that us omnivores eat unhealthy and "too much meat". Because anything that goes against their zero tolerance is unacceptable. My family eat less meat than the recommendation you posted. Our meat intake is 90% fish and white meat. We have 3 meat free days a week and we only eat whole foods. We use dairy and eggs in moderation. A healthier diet than most vegans that stuff themselves with processed foods.

[Odinson]

Its a common vegan misconception that us omnivores eat unhealthy and "too much meat". Because anything that goes against their zero tolerance is unacceptable. My family eat less meat than the recommendation you posted. Our meat intake is 90% fish and white meat. We have 3 meat free days a week and we only eat whole foods. We use dairy and eggs in moderation. A healthier diet than most vegans that stuff themselves with processed foods.

 

Even though there's a lot of discussion about health on this thread, veganism is not about health. I've said it before - you can be unhealthy if all you eat is Oreos and fries. 

 

The statistics also paint a different picture than what you're claiming. The majority of Western populations consume too much animal protein. 'Red meat' has seen a moderate decline in certain Western countries (global consumption still increasing), but then only to be replaced by chicken, fish and pork. So, where's the benefit? 

 

You see the irony in your first and last sentences? 

[Mudsimus]

Even though there's a lot of discussion about health on this thread, veganism is not about health. I've said it before - you can be unhealthy if all you eat is Oreos and fries.

 

The statistics also paint a different picture than what you're claiming. The majority of Western populations consume too much animal protein. 'Red meat' has seen a moderate decline in certain Western countries (global consumption still increasing), but then only to be replaced by chicken, fish and pork. So, where's the benefit?

 

You see the irony in your first and last sentences?

The benefits of white vs red meat for us is that its a leaner option, thus healthier. (Less fat, less kj from animals ta dah)

 

Your diet should be about health. Whether you are vegan not. Eating unhealthy only to try and save the animals is just silly.

[Mojoman]

The benefits of white vs red meat for us is that its a leaner option, thus healthier. (Less fat, less kj from animals ta dah)

 

Your diet should be about health. Whether you are vegan not. Eating unhealthy only to try and save the animals is just silly.

Animals and the planet in general (but I don't have kids so I shouldn't really care too much about the future world, not my problem!)...

 

Although I am not full blown vegan I have been vegetarian for a good few years...the weight just dropped off me (was 100kg at my porkiest....just below 80kg now, thanks to cycling AND eating better)....as for unhealthy...I hear that crap quite a bit from my mates...and each time they are told there are a couple of spare bikes in the house...come for a ride and lets see who is unhealthy....I get turned down each time! 

Edited August 5, 2019 by Mojoman