cycling and faith

[Tumbleweed]

there's a bit on it here:

 

http://www.iht.com/articles/1995/04/20/bike_1.php

[Rogz]

 

You misinterpret the whole debate Rogz or maybe you just wanted to be controversial.?

 

I don't think I misintepreted the debate' date=' and yes, I am trying to be controversial. What would be the point of a "debate" if everyone just wrote in and agreed 100% percent with everything the said in the first post?

 

Christians believe that your life IS mapped out for you, because God has planned good things for all his followers, YOU dont know what that map is, but God dos.

 

So God plans out a map for you, and then gives you the choice to either follow it or not, while at the same time knowing in advance what your choices will be. This simply doesnt make sense. Its a bit like designing a maze for your friends, but somehow knowing, in advance, exactly what route your friends will take when you introduce them to the maze. Whats the point of watching your friend move through the maze, faced with lots of twists and turns, when you know (in advance) exactly what route your friend will take? 

 

So, we believe as christians when we go around making plans and spinning wheels,its not us, its God working THROUGH us and putting his plan into action by opening doors we need to walk through and closing those we dont.

 

Now I'm even more confused? So he guides us, to really, really ensure that we choose the route that he already knows we are going to choose?

 

As for the snide remark about killing yourself ...

 

Its not a snide remark - I'm trying to explore they way you think...

 

[/quote']

[Rogz]

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If we knew all the answers why would we need to have faith?

 [/quote']

Now, I think, we are getting to the meat of the matter!

 

My view is that we don't need to have faith. Humans, having advanced (in comparison) cognitive abilities, demand an explanation for everything. We are unhappy in the presence of "unknowns" and throughout our documented history have sought answers, even when it means making them up.

 

I can list a whole host of concepts that human beings have come up with to explain away unknowns ... flat earths, the earth being the centre of the universe, gods of thunder and lightning, etc, etc, etc. As we advance, we eventually find satisfactory answers to many things, but I doubt we can always know everything.

 

This leaves a horrible gap - unknowns remain... so we choose to simply accept something, and have "faith" that it must be so. Thousands of Christians once genuinely believed (had faith) that the earth really was the centre of the universe, and that burning heretics was a good thing.

 

It?s for this reason that I am very, very wary of relying on faith. Instead, I choose to accept that we simply don?t know why some things are like they are, and that perhaps one day we will find some of the answers, as we have done in the past. It is this quest to understand our environment that has lead humans to evolve and advance as we have. Sometimes this has been a good thing, sometimes not...

 

But the very notion of not wanting to question and discover (and instead to come up with an idea (or worse, accept an idea that someone else cooked up thousands of years ago) and then just blindly accept it (have faith)) is totally not my cup of tea...   

 

 

[Tumbleweed]

you have faith in your cognitive abilities? holy roller2008-07-13 21:13:49

[Rogz]

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you have faith in your cognitive abilities?

 

As the say in South Park; Keh?

 

[original looks just fine in my browser?]

[Tumbleweed]

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you have faith in your cognitive abilities?

 

?

 

As the say in South Park; Keh?

 

?

 

[original looks just fine in my browser?]

 

 

 

have had a coupla niggles. am posting from an ibook. don't if that's causing something to go wrong.

[widget]

 

 

Christians believe that your life IS mapped out for you' date=' because God has planned good things for all his followers, YOU dont know what that map is, but God dos.

 

So God plans out a map for you, and then gives you the choice to either follow it or not, while at the same time knowing in advance what your choices will be. This simply doesnt make sense. Its a bit like designing a maze for your friends, but somehow knowing, in advance, exactly what route your friends will take when you introduce them to the maze. Whats the point of watching your friend move through the maze, faced with lots of twists and turns, when you know (in advance) exactly what route your friend will take? 

 

So, we believe as christians when we go around making plans and spinning wheels,its not us, its God working THROUGH us and putting his plan into action by opening doors we need to walk through and closing those we dont.

 

Now I'm even more confused? So he guides us, to really, really ensure that we choose the route that he already knows we are going to choose?

 

As for the snide remark about killing yourself ...

 

Its not a snide remark - I'm trying to explore they way you think...

 

[/quote']

 

Hmm, I think the point Porky was making Rogz was that God has a plan, this is the basis of Christian belief, however, you have to give your life to God for that plan to unfold.This is the important point.

 

In other words "you have free choice" you can choose to follow God and give your life to him, in which case his plan will unfold, or you can choose to go your own way and believe in the the "Sun" God and follow that teaching, in which case Gods plan will not unfold.

 

Just because God knows what route you will take, dos not mean he will work to change it, which appears to be the nature of both your points.

 

No, the door you take is up to you, he provides the teachings and the scriptures which enable you to make a choice, but only you can make the decision.

 

[widget]

I am very interested and facinated by the reaction to my posting about the relationship/ dialectic between faith and doubt.  For me it is a rather important discovery.  Mother Theresa' date=' no matter how strong she believed, was faced with great doubt, and the only way I can understand that is by evoking this dialectic.  However, it is for me reassuring that having doubt may be a stepping stone to greater faith, rather than a sign of weakness, or lack of faith.  For some people things are so simple, but not for me.

I am also worried that some chose to believe stringently in some parts of the scriptures and not others.  This is obviously a pit fall, as most people can google any bible verse in a matter of seconds, and be able to swat down almost any arguement "biblically".  If you chose to argue about the scriptures,  and make a stand, then the fool is you.  (For the fundementalists, remember what Jesus did in the wilderness when Satan confronted him with the scriptures?  He did not become high and mighty, but rather said "it is written...." When having a debate about the scripture, then the scripture is the only point of reference, the only weapon, and both Satan and Jesus used the scripiture with skill and cunning-  watch and learn:  Matthew 4).

[/quote']

 

This is true, however you really need to understand the scripture before you can use it.  Jesus often spoke in Parables which can be interpreted differantly by differant people, but these scriptures are the defining core of christianity, they speak to its followers and we live by them, so yes of course we do quote them to support a decision or a point.

 

Jesus did it all the time, and left the words for us to follow. Its a bit like a motor car manual for us christians. Would you put the filter element on upside down when it clearly says in the manual this way up, no and to support your decision you refer to the manuals instruction - well its the same thing.!

 

I really have no issue with people discussing religion in a responsible manner even if it is contrary to my belief, I just will not tolerate, blasphemy, belittlement and ridicule of my God.

 

As you prove with your posts, one can easily make a point in a neutral manner and invoke healthy discussion.

 

[Wheelers]

I think God has a plan for all of us. God saved me a lot in my cycling and really glad that I have someone like him in my life.

[Edition 507]

Linnega' date=' do you not feel that your role of "moderator" on this forum is in conflict with your religion? You obviously are very adamant that your beliefs are the way and the only way to get to heaven. I don't take issue with that at all ...

BUT

This forum attracts people of many faiths (or not) that feel as strongly about their beliefs as you do about yours but which often are in conflict with yours. I suggest that you reconsider your role as moderator as I do not believe that you can retain a moderate, neutral perspective on religious issues. Your faith does not allow you to refrain from participating in defense of it which I believe is completely at odds with the function of a moderator.

Note that I am not taking issue with your faith or beliefs so don't jump down my throat.
[/quote']
No conflict at all with being a moderator as there is no requirement for me to be neutral as a moderator.  I am posting to this post not moderating.

As for neutral perspective on religious issues, I am not sure what you could mean by that.  Faith is absolute for most religions.  Acceptance of other religions is a modern concept that I can accept, but obviously my Faith does not allow that I accept any other religion as right.  That would be the same for any Christian, Jew or Muslim.

 

Windbreaker, I also had a encounter with this dude moderating from a personal point of view. Although no rules of the hub were violated he still felt it necessary to highlight a post I had made in red and bold letters. I think admin should seriously consider his suitability as a moderator. If he is not capable of impartiality and moderating from a hub rules perspective then he should do the admirable thing and step down!

 

By the way Windbreaker, are you a sales rep for a baked beans company

[Chunky]

Most proffesional cyclists have faith....

 

They have faith in EPO, Growth Hormones, Steroids and other medicines. They also have faith that they will not get caught.

 

Some have more faith than the others.

 

 

[Guest colonel]

HAHA very good.

[jabbathemutt007]

 

Most proffesional cyclists have faith....

 

They have faith in EPO' date=' Growth Hormones, Steroids and other medicines. They also have faith that they will not get caught.

 

Some have more faith than the others.

 [/quote']

 

It pays to have a good well paid priest though, to give you guidance.

[Willehond]

So colonel, does your pink team dope too?  Seeing that everyone does it...

[Guest colonel]

We are now the blue, black and white team, well in the next 3 weeks when we get our new kit we are. Your other question is rather silly to be honest.

[dirtrider]

Ja also think it is a silly question , for sure they do !!