Formerly known as easy rider Posted July 11, 2008 Share I'll have a bite at this one!Quote Porky "You misinterpret the whole debate Rogz or maybe you just wanted to be controversial.?" cut Perhaps its the "Christian" argument thats controversial? "Christians believe that your life IS mapped out for you, because God has planned good things for all his followers, YOU dont know what that map is, but God dos." cut Would this mapping out your life and the good things planned for Gods' followers include the battery and rape of an 8 month old baby and all the other terrible things that happen to innocent and good people??? "However, here on earth, we have free will to follow Gods map or follow Satans map.If you believe in God as your father and creator, you will follow his map and his plan will come to pass. If you dont, well, Satans plan may come to pass." cut It is a well known fact, that according to Gods' laws, no man is free from sin.We all accept that it is impossible to be free from sin.As soon as you have emotions you are going to become a sinner.If the God of the bible is the all knowing, all powerful creator, he must have known what he was doing when he created us. IE> that we were going to sin etc.In fact if God created everything he created evil, satan aswell.It does say in the bible that God is the creater of good and evil!!!! We are told in the bible that bad sh*t started happening to man when he got into the fruit of a particular tree!!! Well if God is in control of everything, He must have known that that was bound to happen or is God not in control,and you have as you say free will??to do the evil he created and apparently knew(if he is all powerfull, omni present, omni science and omni everything??), that you were going to do anyway, Hey he created you!!! So, we believe as christians when we go around making plans and spinning wheels,its not us, its God working THROUGH us and putting his plan into action by opening doors we need to walk through and closing those we dont. As for the snide remark about killing yourself, well if you were a christian you would know that suicide is against the will of God, and anything against the will of God is from Satan.God put you here and you remain here, because he wants you to be here, to do something for him, or he wants to do something through you, when its time he will call you home (his plan) but, only God, has that right to call you home." End of porky's quote As stated this is pretty controversial stuff Porky. It seems to me that we may just be, according to the Christians, some very,very cruel experiment. Look at what you are saying.::: God creates us with a plan. We cannot be free from sin or evil,(the evil he created),satan tempts us and is responsible for all the bad sh*t that happens,(God created everything including old nick!!) Christians tell us that then God,because he loves us so, sent his only son to become man and die for our sins(the evil we fell into that He claims to have created) Not having a go at you Porks, just try to understand that some of us read the bible and ask different questions,hopefully you can clear mine up for me. As KonaFan has stated, the old Christian "simplicity" is seen by some as controversial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowbee Posted July 11, 2008 Share If we knew all the answers why would we need to have faith? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly known as easy rider Posted July 11, 2008 Share If we knew all the answers why would we need to have faith? Excactly Slowbee. As Kona stated, faith is belief despite doubt. It is YOUR faith.Yours, despite all doubts!!!!! So wouldn't it be a good idea to keep ones faith to oneself, ( as your avatar rightly states).Because these Christian statements/arguments are just that, a Faith,that which Christians believe despite all the doubt, and controversy Which must and will on a public cycling forum(which attracts all faiths and others) lead to opposing veiws and it seems heated argument and folk (usually the Christians) getting upset? Your faith is your faith,(despite the doubt). Hubbers shouldn't expect others to not question that doubt when posting "christian statements"on the hub.Formerly known as easy rider2008-07-11 16:58:57 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
widget Posted July 12, 2008 Share I find it very difficult to keep quite here because as a Christian I WILL defend my faith. I will NOT stand idly by and allow someone to denegrate and belittle my God without defense. Jesus has made it perfectly clear "Deny me before man' date=' and I will deny you before the father" - I didnt say it Jesus did. I agree with Porky, as Christians we believe whatever we do, its God working through us, thats "Christianity", "Humanism" is believing that we do it all ourselves, which is what most of you are questioning. People have denied God from the beginning,its not new, they hung Jesus on the cross then, and they continue to do so to this day, believe what you like, I have no issues with that, but if you insist on questioning, ridiculing and deriding my God, I WILL NOT keep quite.! Take that as you like.! [/quote'] widget2008-07-12 02:15:09 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly known as easy rider Posted July 12, 2008 Share Widget, Thats the point mate, you can't defend a faith.You believe it because you believe it despite there being cause for doubt. If there was no doubt you would not have a faith...... just knowledge. The only way to defend a faith is to say I believe it because I believe it, which is excactly what you have done in your post. Nobody is asking or requiring that you deny Christ. Don't know why you're worried about that. God is all powerful, why does He require your defense...sinner Widget???? The point is.... widget these things are best shared by those who share a faith, and/or with those that ask. No reasonable person is going to deny you ,or ridicule, your faith, but what is wrong with questioning your reasoning, if you are going to post issues of faith( stuff you believe despite doubt), on the hub. I'm fine with the experiences shared by some hubbers on how God touched their lives, its nice to hear more about the "personalities" here on the hub, and I believe inspirational tom some to think about their faith and Christianity.But leave the rhetoric.It is a never ending "cos it is, cos I believe it" and "How dare you....... my faith", and doesn't make Christianity look very tolerant or good IMHO When you post something that you believe, despite doubt,don't get upset when that doubt is questioned even if you have called it your faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
widget Posted July 12, 2008 Share Widget' date=' Thats the point mate, you can't defend a faith.You believe it because you believe it despite there being cause for doubt. [/quote'] ......."OH" yes you can.! I have no issue with people discussing a subject responsibly, but I will not stand by and allow people to denigrate, belittle and ridicule my God. I will not.! Read some of the posts, they are downright blasphemous, I will not stand around and accept that, as is your comment - "God is all powerful, why does He require your defense...sinner Widget????" - do you think that kind of comment is responsible? do you not think its offensive to me and other Christians??Should we just sit back and accept it?? I will not.!! You cannot say things like that and not inflame emotions, I say again, I will defend my religion and my God and if it leads to inflamed posts - So be it!! - God said "My name will be persecuted by many, for me, you will be tortured, ridiculed and stoned, but you are to stand firm and go spread my word." widget2008-07-12 04:27:55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly known as easy rider Posted July 12, 2008 Share Widgets quote ""Read some of the posts, they are downright blasphemous, I will not stand around and accept that, as is your comment - "God is all powerful, why does He require your defense...sinner Widget????" - do you think that kind of comment is responsible? do you not think its offensive to me and other Christians??Should we just sit back and accept it?? I will not.!! You cannot say things like that and not inflame emotions, I say again, I will defend my religion and my God and if it leads to inflamed posts - So be it!! -""End quote Oh sorry so according to you, God is not all powerful or perfect ,you are!!???? I was pointing out that God is perfection and does not need the defense of a mere mortal sinner such as Widget or any other person/Christian.How posing a question is irresponsible....Such as why you feel it neccesary to defend God?? .....I will never know Don't get offended Widget anwer the questions. Defend your faith, sorry you have now called it your religion and your God( obviously you don't seem to think he just may be mine aswell!!???) I do not intend to persecute God Widget. But I am looking forward to you actually defending your faith and not just ranting on about being persecuted and hard done by. And if you continue to rant and rave about your Faith you are going to have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
widget Posted July 12, 2008 Share Stop putting words into my mouth, you are fond of reading your own message into the words I posted "See below -Where did I say any of that" - its your "PERCEPTION" of what I am saying, and its wrong, stick to the words of the post and stop reading your own ideas into my posts.! .........and you did not pose a question to which we are referring, - you made a statement.! Furthermore - God is not all powerful or perfect ,???? - WHERE DID I SAY THAT????????? - Answer me that!!! If someone walks up to your wife, kids, family and offends them personally, they may not need your support, but will you not defend them?? Will you just stand around and say nothing??, and snigger under your coat?? I doubt it, - well theres your answer, I believe God is my Father and if you offend my father I will defend him, of course he may not need it, but I believe its asked of me and its my duty and I will obey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanieFiets Posted July 12, 2008 Share eh, moderator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly known as easy rider Posted July 12, 2008 Share Widget,"God is all powerfull,why does he require your defense....sinner widget" This is what has upset you.You now are on about getting upset and offending your father. What part of this statement is offensive to your God??On what do you base this alleged offence?? I put it to you that YOU have chosen to get offended.Now stop being un reasonable and posting YOUR faith on the hub. Where in Christian doctrine does it require you to "defend" GOD?? Practice what is taught bru... Justice,peace, love, charity,forgiveness and stop talking for all christians.Who gave you the mandate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linnega Posted July 12, 2008 Share Widget' date='"God is all powerfull,why does he require your defense....sinner widget" This is what has upset you.You now are on about getting upset and offending your father. What part of this statement is offensive to your God??On what do you base this alleged offence?? I put it to you that YOU have chosen to get offended.Now stop being un reasonable and posting YOUR faith on the hub. Where in Christian doctrine does it require you to "defend" GOD?? Practice what is taught bru... Justice,peace, love, charity,forgiveness and stop talking for all christians.Who gave you the mandate?[/quote']Why are you asking question about stuff that has already been answered directly. Widget provided you with two direct quotes from the Bible, that clearly require Christians to stand up for Jesus. Playing with the semantics of the meaning of "defend" doesn't make you right. As for your last sentence, perhaps you should take the time to understand what Jesus taught. You are parading good morals as basic tenets of Christianity. They should just be symptoms of the three basic principles of love your God as the one and only true God, love your brother as you love yourself (and as Jesus has loved you) and spread the Good News to all men. Jesus gave the mandate directly on more than one occasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porky Posted July 12, 2008 Share Widget' date=' "God is all powerfull,why does he require your defense....sinner widget" This is what has upset you.You now are on about getting upset and offending your father. What part of this statement is offensive to your God??On what do you base this alleged offence?? I put it to you that YOU have chosen to get offended.Now stop being un reasonable and posting YOUR faith on the hub. Where in Christian doctrine does it require you to "defend" GOD?? Practice what is taught bru... Justice,peace, love, charity,forgiveness and stop talking for all christians.Who gave you the mandate?[/quote'] Widget, shake them off your shoes like dust. They are like the Pharises in the scriptures, they question not for Knowledge but to trap you, to trick you into saying something they can use against your faith. Shake them off my friend, they are not worth it.! Jesus sent out his diciples he strengthened them with these words "Be on your gaurd against men, they will persecute you and hand you over to the council and they will flog you in their synagogues. On my account you will be bought before govenors and kings, they will arrest you, but do not be afraid. All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another and spread my word. Leave them be Widget, as you rightly said, they have persecuted and denied Jesus for ever, they will never stop, let your peace rest elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windbreaker Posted July 12, 2008 Share Linnega, do you not feel that your role of "moderator" on this forum is in conflict with your religion? You obviously are very adamant that your beliefs are the way and the only way to get to heaven. I don't take issue with that at all ... BUT This forum attracts people of many faiths (or not) that feel as strongly about their beliefs as you do about yours but which often are in conflict with yours. I suggest that you reconsider your role as moderator as I do not believe that you can retain a moderate, neutral perspective on religious issues. Your faith does not allow you to refrain from participating in defense of it which I believe is completely at odds with the function of a moderator. Note that I am not taking issue with your faith or beliefs so don't jump down my throat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly known as easy rider Posted July 12, 2008 Share Guys this is whats wrong with discussions of "faith" on the hub. It leads to people of opposing veiws and different faiths upsetting and annoying each other.I have been accused of blasphemy,(how I still don't know!),and it seems a lot of other things reading the scriptures quoted,(from your faiths Holy bible) Linnega,I don't need to be right.It would appear that you however do. I did want to point out that all faiths can, and do, get seen as controversial by other people that do not follow our own faith. As in the scriptures quoted, I do not believe that I have,(and ceartainly hope that I have not un intentionally) ridiculed your God,persecuted you,tortured you,stoned you,handed you over to council,flogged you in a synagogue,taken you before a govenor or council or arrested you, and I ceartainly don't hate you. Porks I am not trying to trap anybody and I have not "persecuted Jesus forever"In fact all the scriptures quoted in,dare I say, "defense" of your argument state quite clearly that believers should "stand firm" in their faith.Not rant,rave or get the helling!! If however you do feel that you are being pesecuted then perhaps you could look at the scripture quoted by Porks, ".........when you are persecuted in one place,flee to another and spread my word" Your faith is YOUR faith, don't defend it,simply because it is a faith. IE belief despite doubt,and keep it off a public cycling forum to avoid getting questioned and upset by opposing veiws. There should not be blasphemous statements or your Lords name used in vain on the hub.this any reasonable person accepts.I do not however think that the hub is a place to "spread the word" of our own individual faiths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idrive Posted July 13, 2008 Share I thought you weren't allowed outside assistance in MTBking..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumbleweed Posted July 13, 2008 Share but most mtbers will use the lord's name in vain at some time or another Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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