cape epic routes - gps/tracks

[esCape-ist]

32 minutes ago, ChrisF said:

If you want to see the total disconnect between "normal people" and "hooligans"…

…

The irony being that by far most farmers are super friendly and will welcome you .... IF you speak to them and ask for permission to enter.

Exactly, most people if approached and asked nicely wouldn’t have an issue. It only takes a handful of “hooligans” to ruin this though. 
 

The other problem is that unfortunately most people are decent law abiding citizens until they leave their front gate. So unfortunately, most normal people are hooligans. 
 

Unfortunately, most upper middle class South Africans are “min gewoond”. 

Edited August 10, 2022 by esCape-ist
Format

[ChrisF]

14 minutes ago, esCape-ist said:

Exactly, most people if approached and asked nicely wouldn’t have an issue. It only takes a handful of “hooligans” to ruin this though. 
 

The other problem is that unfortunately most people are decent law abiding citizens until they leave their front gate. So unfortunately, most normal people are hooligans. 
 

Unfortunately, most upper middle class South Africans are “min gewoond”. 

 

Sadly very true words ....

[dave303e]

19 hours ago, Shebeen said:

back in the day, Grandstand used to be HUGELY protective over the route.

it's still there in the rules:

The line back then was that people would download these files and then go and trespass. I think that's crap, I'm an open access to information guy - the crime is trespassing, not giving directions. My conspiracy theory was that they had Polar as a main sponsor, and they were getting killed in the GPS game by garmin/suunto so banning GPS watches was a good move then.

People would be uploading their files to strava, and then getting orders to take them down. then made private.

it seems like this is not done anymore, the world has moved on.

anyone with a Strava pro account can go an download this GPX file now.

even on openstreetmaps you can find some old route files on very private once off areas.

 

 

so is it open season now, can we distribute the routes from the years going back?

 

 

 

I was thinking about this earlier. What I think might be happening is that there is a race to build geo data in general. With all these other map platforms everyone want's the most complete base map gallery. It is mission critical to a lot of the SAAS geo platforms and mobile apps.
What the data scientists are very good at- is a little digital scraping, and pulling as much data out of everywhere into a big mess and then refining it from there. I have done it successfully before. When it comes to making maps gps tracks are best to scrape because they carry a lot of depth in the data. If 100 bikes cycled along there then you can be certain there is a track, same for walking and driving etc. It often works better in places where the satellite imagery is not great or for minor paths that may not be clear enough to spot in satellite imagery etc. You also have speed and a last used so you can discard old tracks that are unused and verify often used tracks. You can also gather a condition by the speed travelled along the track. I suspect this might have been what is happening in the OSM map above. Running this process at large scale will always have something that is not perfect popping up. Look at google's building footprints that were automatically created. Lots of hay bales classed as huts. Just a small error in a ridiculously massive dataset.

[Shebeen]

10 minutes ago, dave303e said:

I was thinking about this earlier. What I think might be happening is that there is a race to build geo data in general. With all these other map platforms everyone want's the most complete base map gallery. It is mission critical to a lot of the SAAS geo platforms and mobile apps.
What the data scientists are very good at- is a little digital scraping, and pulling as much data out of everywhere into a big mess and then refining it from there. I have done it successfully before. When it comes to making maps gps tracks are best to scrape because they carry a lot of depth in the data. If 100 bikes cycled along there then you can be certain there is a track, same for walking and driving etc. It often works better in places where the satellite imagery is not great or for minor paths that may not be clear enough to spot in satellite imagery etc. You also have speed and a last used so you can discard old tracks that are unused and verify often used tracks. You can also gather a condition by the speed travelled along the track. I suspect this might have been what is happening in the OSM map above. Running this process at large scale will always have something that is not perfect popping up. Look at google's building footprints that were automatically created. Lots of hay bales classed as huts. Just a small error in a ridiculously massive dataset.

Possible.

In this case I had a look at the editing history from open Street map and the track was uploaded by a fairly decent but not widely known MTB rider.

[Shebeen]

13 hours ago, esCape-ist said:

People love backslaps and high fives, that is why they share there rides on strava for kudos, and will keep doing so. It’s become pretty much the norm, and I can understand event organisers giving up on policing this. There is also not really anything wrong with sharing your rides on strava, be it a private training ride, or an event or on public or private property.

You are 100% correct, the onus does lie with the rider to do the right thing when it comes to downloading gpx files and gaining permission for access across private prop, but the OP specifically asked if it is now okay for him to share his route files from previous epics publically, and that is the reason for me asking why?

1. You agreed to terms and conditions when you entered the event, specifically requesting you not to.

2. There is a very reasonable “for the public good” reason not to share these publicly.

 

What is the drive behind wanting to share these now? 
 

also, the simple answer would be to contact Epic and ask them what gives. 

You're making two big but incorrect assumptions there.

I don't have an agreement with the race.

I didn't create the kml files.

[esCape-ist]

39 minutes ago, Shebeen said:

Possible.

In this case I had a look at the editing history from open Street map and the track was uploaded by a fairly decent but not widely known MTB rider.

So, since you know that the track is “on very private once off areas”, and you are clearly technically adept enough to find check the metadata on the file on OSM, why not rather flag the data so it can be marked as private, or removed completely. Open sourced data is only as good as the input given by the community.

20 hours ago, Shebeen said:

back in the day, Grandstand used to be HUGELY protective over the route.

it's still there in the rules:

The line back then was that people would download these files and then go and trespass. I think that's crap, I'm an open access to information guy - the crime is trespassing, not giving directions. My conspiracy theory was that they had Polar as a main sponsor, and they were getting killed in the GPS game by garmin/suunto so banning GPS watches was a good move then.

People would be uploading their files to strava, and then getting orders to take them down. then made private.

it seems like this is not done anymore, the world has moved on.

anyone with a Strava pro account can go an download this GPX file now.

even on openstreetmaps you can find some old route files on very private once off areas.

 

 

so is it open season now, can we distribute the routes from the years going back?

 

 

 

1. Were GPS devices ever banned? I can't recall that they were, or how it would have been practical to do so. Participants were just asked not to share the route files.

2. If I am making a mistake in assuming you have an agreement with the event organiser, may I then enquire as to how you have come into possession of the route data without an agreement with the event organiser? There are only a handful of scenarios I can think of. Either you rode the race, meaning you do have an agreement with them no to share the data, or you didn't ride the race, but were involved in some way with the route planning - if this was in an official capacity, you would also have signed some kind of data sharing agreement, I know I did. Or you were unofficially asked to tag along on recces, in which case, the people asking you along would probably have asked you not to share the gpx files publically, and even if they hadn't, you clearly understand that you weren't supposed to. Or lastly, the files were shared to you by a third party, most likely for your private use, and this party assumed at least that you know better than to trespass on private property and would use the files with discretion. Or you got them from a third party that couldn't be bothered with the rules, which makes you wanting to share them no different to illegally sharing torrents on pirate bay.

 

If I am still mistaken, please feel free to correct me.

[Shebeen]

2 hours ago, esCape-ist said:

So, since you know that the track is “on very private once off areas”, and you are clearly technically adept enough to find check the metadata on the file on OSM, why not rather flag the data so it can be marked as private, or removed completely. Open sourced data is only as good as the input given by the community.

1. Were GPS devices ever banned? I can't recall that they were, or how it would have been practical to do so. Participants were just asked not to share the route files.

It was in the rules, and AFAIK they made you take it off on the startline. I'm thinking mid 2000s when wrist based was coming out. Only selected riders were given them for the live tracking page.

2 hours ago, esCape-ist said:

2. If I am making a mistake in assuming you have an agreement with the event organiser, may I then enquire as to how you have come into possession of the route data without an agreement with the event organiser? There are only a handful of scenarios I can think of. Either you rode the race, meaning you do have an agreement with them no to share the data, or you didn't ride the race, but were involved in some way with the route planning - if this was in an official capacity, you would also have signed some kind of data sharing agreement, I know I did. Or you were unofficially asked to tag along on recces, in which case, the people asking you along would probably have asked you not to share the gpx files publically, and even if they hadn't, you clearly understand that you weren't supposed to. Or lastly, the files were shared to you by a third party, most likely for your private use, and this party assumed at least that you know better than to trespass on private property and would use the files with discretion. Or you got them from a third party that couldn't be bothered with the rules, which makes you wanting to share them no different to illegally sharing torrents on pirate bay.

 

If I am still mistaken, please feel free to correct me.

Don't have an agreement = never entered the race.

and to answer your other question, I got the routes off the internet.

 

edit: a search actually works! on this 2009 

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by Shebeen

[esCape-ist]

Edit. 

I give up. I have no dog in this fight. Do what you want with the data, you clearly feel entitled to anyway. Just don't complain the next time a farmer declines to let you traverse his land for a race or event.

Edited August 11, 2022 by esCape-ist

[Shebeen]

1 hour ago, esCape-ist said:

Edit. 

I give up. I have no dog in this fight. Do what you want with the data, you clearly feel entitled to anyway. Just don't complain the next time a farmer declines to let you traverse his land for a race or event.

awww, but friday is just around the corner!

As your theory is that having access to GPS tracks is what fuels trespassing, then surely we should be having a massive surge in okes doing what they want.

strava/ridewithgps/komoot/OSM and more all have got so much more available info on a device that goes into your jersey pocket nowadays. Ergo, every tom dick and harry  should be riding on any route that has ever been ridden or uploaded.