cape epic routes - gps/tracks

[Shebeen]

back in the day, Grandstand used to be HUGELY protective over the route.

it's still there in the rules:

The line back then was that people would download these files and then go and trespass. I think that's crap, I'm an open access to information guy - the crime is trespassing, not giving directions. My conspiracy theory was that they had Polar as a main sponsor, and they were getting killed in the GPS game by garmin/suunto so banning GPS watches was a good move then.

People would be uploading their files to strava, and then getting orders to take them down. then made private.

it seems like this is not done anymore, the world has moved on.

anyone with a Strava pro account can go an download this GPX file now.

even on openstreetmaps you can find some old route files on very private once off areas.

 

 

so is it open season now, can we distribute the routes from the years going back?

 

 

 

[esCape-ist]

Why is it important to do so?
 

They are definitely not being as strict about the sharing of the route anymore, but it is still in the rules, and for good reason. It is about protecting the relationship with landowners allowing once off access across private property. People are inherently stupid, and will go out and ride trails just because they see the route on strava. If they are apprehended by irate landowners, they turn around and say , “I found this in the public domain blah blah blah” and slowly but surely create negative connotations towards MTBing in general.

 

if you have routes files on your database, that you know cut across private property, and want to share them amongst your friends, go for it, but why insist on sharing them publicly? Who benefits?

 

Also, because it’s in the rules, just because they aren’t so strict in enforcing it on strava anymore, doesn’t mean you aren’t opening yourself to trouble for sharing old route files. You agreed to the rules when you entered the event.

Edited August 10, 2022 by esCape-ist

[DieselnDust]

I could be very wrong here but I don’t think the event organiser can enforce what you do with your data anylonger. Data protection regulations have moved more toward protecting the data owner than it did when those rules were created.

[esCape-ist]

Even if that is the case, the question of why it is so important to share the routes, when the intention was for the riders not to share the route files, and was done for good reason.

 

believe it or not, not all cyclists are considerate towards landowners, or know how to behave when given the priveledge to traverse someone else private property.

 I have family with a farm north of Pretoria. They have a historic right of way that traverses their property, so legally they can’t restrict access here, and they have built appropriate stiles here to cross the boundary. It is used by pedestrians making thier way to the bus stop or accessing the nearby school, and is also popular with mtbers. Surprisingly the bulk of the litter dropped along this route is by cyclists, and not by the schoolchildren or farm workers. Gel sachets, used bombs etc, and this in an area where there horses and cattle graze, and worst of all flattening the fence next to the stiles, because they too lazy to lift their ultralight  carbon bikes over the stile. My uncle does not like cyclists on his property especially because of this, but has allowed access across his property for organised MTB races, trail runs and horse endurance races.

 

beyond the public right of way, that they have to leave open, they often have to deal with gates left open by cyclists that are following gps routes and assume just because a track file exists, it means they can access private property, and leave gates opened and so on. It is a huge problem. So why do you feel so strongly the need to share the track files that you have basically been asked not to share?
 

you can still load it to strava, just set the privacy accordingly.

51 minutes ago, DieselnDust said:

I could be very wrong here but I don’t think the event organiser can enforce what you do with your data anylonger. Data protection regulations have moved more toward protecting the data owner than it did when those rules were created.

 

Edited August 10, 2022 by esCape-ist

[dave303e]

Sadly it is a losing battle with people, it also happened in Enduro motorbikes.

We once used an amazing part of a farm in a motorbike race, then someone went and rode it a few weeks later and we never were allowed to race there again. There was even a shooting incident where a landowner was letting off warning shots around them.

My folks live near a popular riding area by rosemary hill and the number of guys cutting along their fence across from the road to the railway is a joke. Neighbor has had to fetch his cows off the railway a few times where cyclists have damaged the fence climbing over.

Sadly south africans can't respect where they can and can't ride their bikes in general. Case and point strava segments on national highways where it is illegal to ride. Same old story, a few will ruin it for lots of others.

As for open data, logic states that if it is land, someone owns it. So if you are riding somewhere for 'free' on your mtb, chances are you are on a public road or trespassing in some form.
As for all the government land- if you are allowed to ride there, chances are you will know where to pay to access it, or you are again trespassing.
But ya people will be people. Strava heatmaps show how often people are cutting through private land

[ChrisF]

23 minutes ago, dave303e said:

Sadly it is a losing battle with people, it also happened in Enduro motorbikes.

We once used an amazing part of a farm in a motorbike race, then someone went and rode it a few weeks later and we never were allowed to race there again. There was even a shooting incident where a landowner was letting off warning shots around them.

My folks live near a popular riding area by rosemary hill and the number of guys cutting along their fence across from the road to the railway is a joke. Neighbor has had to fetch his cows off the railway a few times where cyclists have damaged the fence climbing over.

Sadly south africans can't respect where they can and can't ride their bikes in general. Case and point strava segments on national highways where it is illegal to ride. Same old story, a few will ruin it for lots of others.

As for open data, logic states that if it is land, someone owns it. So if you are riding somewhere for 'free' on your mtb, chances are you are on a public road or trespassing in some form.
As for all the government land- if you are allowed to ride there, chances are you will know where to pay to access it, or you are again trespassing.
But ya people will be people. Strava heatmaps show how often people are cutting through private land

 

Had that on a 4x4 trip ... farmer got gatvol of people following T4A route over his private property .... he litterally removed the gate and put in a sold fence !!!

[dave303e]

https://csggis.drdlr.gov.za/psv/
 

There is a link to all the property boundaries in SA. So unless you are paying/arranged for access or are on a public road, best check what property you are on and how badly you are trespassing...

[Dicky DQ]

56 minutes ago, dave303e said:

Sadly south africans can't respect where they can and can't ride their bikes in general. Case and point strava segments on national highways where it is illegal to ride. Same old story, a few will ruin it for lots of others.

While I agree with your sentiments, the above is a bit of a red herring. riding on national highways is ALL GOOD, riding on freeways is a different story altogether. 

However you need to know the difference.

Freeways are typically denoted by a sign with two lines going under a bridge and there are no roads directly joining the road except via on and off ramps.

https://www.diffen.com/difference/Freeway_vs_Highway

As long is it is not a freeway you are good to cycle on it. Is it safe to do so is another story altogether.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Dicky DQ

[Shebeen]

1 hour ago, esCape-ist said:

Why is it important to do so?
 

They are definitely not being as strict about the sharing of the route anymore, but it is still in the rules, and for good reason. It is about protecting the relationship with landowners allowing once off access across private property. People are inherently stupid, and will go out and ride trails just because they see the route on strava. If they are apprehended by irate landowners, they turn around and say , “I found this in the public domain blah blah blah” and slowly but surely create negative connotations towards MTBing in general.

 

if you have routes files on your database, that you know cut across private property, and want to share them amongst your friends, go for it, but why insist on sharing them publicly? Who benefits?

 

Also, because it’s in the rules, just because they aren’t so strict in enforcing it on strava anymore, doesn’t mean you aren’t opening yourself to trouble for sharing old route files. You agreed to the rules when you entered the event.

I disagree with your main argument. guns don't kill people, but this ship has sailed.

 

I just found it interesting to find "Cape epic" marked on private land on open Street maps from the 2017(?) Race.

 

 

[dave303e]

6 minutes ago, Dicky DQ said:

While I agree with your sentiments, the above is a bit of a red herring. riding on national highways is ALL GOOD, riding on freeways is a different story altogether. 

However you need to know the difference.

Freeways are typically denoted by a sign with two lines going under a bridge and there are no roads directly joining the road except via on and off ramps.

https://www.diffen.com/difference/Freeway_vs_Highway

As long is it is not a freeway you are good to cycle on it. Is it safe to do so is another story altogether.

Apologies for the incorrect terminology, I meant freeway.

https://www.strava.com/segments/6953445

3 segments on this stretch of highway, M4 grit, N4 up, N4 down, with aforementioned blue signs with 2 lines under a bridge and even tollgates at either end of the segments. 

[Dicky DQ]

2 minutes ago, dave303e said:

Apologies for the incorrect terminology, I meant freeway.

https://www.strava.com/segments/6953445

3 segments on this stretch of highway, M4 grit, N4 up, N4 down, with aforementioned blue signs with 2 lines under a bridge and even tollgates at either end of the segments. 

No worries, it is just that many get confused and their nickers in a knot for the wrong reasons.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Dicky DQ

[esCape-ist]

5 minutes ago, Shebeen said:

I disagree with your main argument. guns don't kill people, but this ship has sailed.

 

I just found it interesting to find "Cape epic" marked on private land on open Street maps from the 2017(?) Race.

 

 

It’s a bit of a stretch to compare the principle here to gun control (and not that it matters, but I am a gun owner).

Most people, even the really stupid ones, know that guns are controlled and require licenses. Excluding outright criminals, most people would not take a gun from their fathers safe just because they know the combination, drive out to the first open field they find and start target practice. For that matter, they wouldn’t even do it with their own, licensed firearm. They would go to a shooting range, pay range fees, and enjoy themselves. Or they would legally access a farm, and with the land owners permission choose a suitable site to set up targets/go hunting whatever, all within the bounds of the law.

 

But, you don’t need a license to ride a bike (thankfully), and the average cyclist assumes that because their gps says they should turn left, they can turn left, even if that means crossing a fence, opening a gate etc, without any consideration of whether they need permission to access that property. 
 

so I ask again, why the intense desire to publicly share GPX files you were explicitly asked not to?

[DieselnDust]

1 hour ago, esCape-ist said:

Even if that is the case, the question of why it is so important to share the routes, when the intention was for the riders not to share the route files, and was done for good reason.

 

believe it or not, not all cyclists are considerate towards landowners, or know how to behave when given the priveledge to traverse someone else private property.

 I have family with a farm north of Pretoria. They have a historic right of way that traverses their property, so legally they can’t restrict access here, and they have built appropriate stiles here to cross the boundary. It is used by pedestrians making thier way to the bus stop or accessing the nearby school, and is also popular with mtbers. Surprisingly the bulk of the litter dropped along this route is by cyclists, and not by the schoolchildren or farm workers. Gel sachets, used bombs etc, and this in an area where there horses and cattle graze, and worst of all flattening the fence next to the stiles, because they too lazy to lift their ultralight  carbon bikes over the stile. My uncle does not like cyclists on his property especially because of this, but has allowed access across his property for organised MTB races, trail runs and horse endurance races.

 

beyond the public right of way, that they have to leave open, they often have to deal with gates left open by cyclists that are following gps routes and assume just because a track file exists, it means they can access private property, and leave gates opened and so on. It is a huge problem. So why do you feel so strongly the need to share the track files that you have basically been asked not to share?
 

you can still load it to strava, just set the privacy accordingly.

 

You’d have to interview each person who posts their Stage race stages why they share it to Strava.

does that make them a criminal?

 

a tresspasser?

 

is the better question not to be asked of the people who download  gpx files from others accounts and use that data to trespass?

so guns don’t kill people seems to have relevance no?

why do people have social media accounts?

why do influencers flash their tits?

 

why why why?

jf we strives for more “A”’s there wouldn’t be so many y’s

 

Edited August 10, 2022 by DieselnDust

[dave303e]

I mean, hop a wall in a suburb to ride your bike across the back yard to the road behind. Security, police, neighborhood watch, residents association- they will all lose their minds it will be groot turds... But that same home owner wouldn't think much about checking if it is a private road or private property when cutting across a field on their bike a lot of the time. Dropping a gu sachet, leaving an empty bomb etc along the way. Our workers love cyclists leaving punctured tubes along the railway line.

On the gun topic- in town you don't think twice when you hear a police siren in the suburbs, but you panic when you hear gunshots. Out in the sticks you don't even wake up for gunshots, but you panic if there are police sirens. Our neighbor probably drops a grand a month on 9mm ammo just when the shadows move funny in his veggie patch at night.

[esCape-ist]

41 minutes ago, DieselnDust said:

You’d have to interview each person who posts their Stage race stages why they share it to Strava.

does that make them a criminal?

 

a tresspasser?

 

is the better question not to be asked of the people who download  gpx files from others accounts and use that data to trespass?

so guns don’t kill people seems to have relevance no?

why do people have social media accounts?

why do influencers flash their tits?

 

why why why?

jf we strives for more “A”’s there wouldn’t be so many y’s

 

People love backslaps and high fives, that is why they share there rides on strava for kudos, and will keep doing so. It’s become pretty much the norm, and I can understand event organisers giving up on policing this. There is also not really anything wrong with sharing your rides on strava, be it a private training ride, or an event or on public or private property.

You are 100% correct, the onus does lie with the rider to do the right thing when it comes to downloading gpx files and gaining permission for access across private prop, but the OP specifically asked if it is now okay for him to share his route files from previous epics publically, and that is the reason for me asking why?

1. You agreed to terms and conditions when you entered the event, specifically requesting you not to.

2. There is a very reasonable “for the public good” reason not to share these publicly.

 

What is the drive behind wanting to share these now? 
 

also, the simple answer would be to contact Epic and ask them what gives. 

[ChrisF]

If you want to see the total disconnect between "normal people" and "hooligans" ....

 

Drive out to Matroosberg during snow season ..... 

 

People who have 8-foot high security walls with cameras and armed response thinks NOTHING of destroying a farmers fence ..... the "good" ones just play in the snow ... the rest rip up his farm in their luxury 4x4's ..... 

 

 

"WE" get all legit when it gets to OUR safety and security ..... pity so many of "us" dont give a hoot about the farmers safety and security.

 

 

 

 

The irony being that by far most farmers are super friendly and will welcome you .... IF you speak to them and ask for permission to enter.