Guest colonel Posted March 6, 2009 Posted March 6, 2009 Why do you need a superstore??? It's an SA thingso you have have mega companies (Tiger brands etc' date=' Edcon etc), but not retail (cycle in this particular case) stores ?[/quote'] I havent read all 12342 pages but Slowbee didnt Tiger Brands also get nailed for price fixing not to long ago?? Superstore......
wimron Posted March 6, 2009 Posted March 6, 2009 Like many others -- Commission gives em a good ole fine an they pass it on to the consumer !! --- we get sucked again !!!
BendeBeer Posted March 6, 2009 Posted March 6, 2009 "That these retailers believed they could act together to increase prices with impunity is shocking. The Commission intends to thoroughly investigate this apparently blatant attempt amongst competing retailers to collusively raise prices to unsuspecting consumers." (from the CC's news release)[/quote']Shew. That's quite a strongly worded statement from Mr Shan Ramburuth. To me it implies guilt before the investigation has even begun... My guess is that, similar to the bread price fixing investigation - they consider the mere holding of the meeting between competitors to discuss a price increase as a blatant transgression of the competition Act. They have probably had successful prosecutions in similar circumstances before (bread case) and because the holding and the general gist of the meeting has already been confirmed in puclic forums by some of the participants they view this as an open and shut case. My money is on the CC but it does not make me feel much better about any of this. I've had good experiences with Cyclelab and I'm not sure whether I'd be happy to see them go under as a result of this (although I probably should be)
Sean Badenhorst Posted March 6, 2009 Posted March 6, 2009 "That these retailers believed they could act together to increase prices with impunity is shocking. The Commission intends to thoroughly investigate this apparently blatant attempt amongst competing retailers to collusively raise prices to unsuspecting consumers." (from the CC's news release)[/quote'] Shew. That's quite a strongly worded statement from Mr Shan Ramburuth. To me it implies guilt before the investigation has even begun... My guess is that, similar to the bread price fixing investigation - they consider the mere holding of the meeting between competitors to discuss a price increase as a blatant transgression of the competition Act. They have probably had successful prosecutions in similar circumstances before (bread case) and because the holding and the general gist of the meeting has already been confirmed in puclic forums by some of the participants they view this as an open and shut case. My money is on the CC but it does not make me feel much better about any of this. I've had good experiences with Cyclelab and I'm not sure whether I'd be happy to see them go under as a result of this (although I probably should be) Looks like the Competition Commission has it's own set of challenges too. Here's a small speed bump they hit with the SA bank charges investigation last month: http://secure.financialmail.co.za/09/0116/moneyinvest/amoney.htm
Delgado Posted March 6, 2009 Posted March 6, 2009 just remember one thing... theres no such thing as bad press... this is generating HUGE exposure for cycle lab and fritz pienaar Perhaps not!! But there is something called reputational damage!! Just ask Saambou or Andersons....oops you can't....they no longer exist. In both their cases they were ultimately not at fault but hey??!!
Sean Badenhorst Posted March 6, 2009 Posted March 6, 2009 This just in... Competition Commission enquiry - Cycle Lab response Inthe recent enquiry made by the Competition Commission, it has beenalleged that the cycling industry met to discuss possible price-fixingschemes on cycling equipment and collusion to ?drive up? margins. CycleLab, as one of the attendees of this meeting and as a leading retailerin the industry, would like to respond as follows: Latelast year over 40 of the country?s cycling wholesalers and retailerswere invited to gather in Johannesburg at an open conference to discussthe state of the industry. The aim of the forum was to generatesolutions to overcome the effects of the economic recession, with theobjective of helping all SA retailers develop a sustainable business. Thismeeting was not an attempt to fix industry pricing, as alleged by theCompetition Commission, but rather assessing the cycling industry andestablishing ways to align the South African market with currentinternational trends. All parties present debated possible solutions. Ithas come to our attention that the minutes captured at this open forumwere inaccurate and, based on this document, the Competition Commissionfelt compelled to launch an enquiry into the matter. However, allmembers present will attest to the actual intent of the meeting and, toensure the matter is resolved, have undertaken to sign legal affidavitsto this effect. As an attendee of the meeting, Cycle Labbelieves that the conference was aimed at providing positive outcomesfor the entire industry ? wholesalers, retailers and consumers ? andthat, once the Commission has completed its enquiry, they will findthat this meeting was held with the best intentions for all involved. As one the country?s leading cycle retailers, we would like tore-affirm our commitment to our consumers. Andrew McLean, Cycle Lab Director
Delgado Posted March 6, 2009 Posted March 6, 2009 Sorry!! Don't buy it! The first part was what was released at the time of the exposure on the hub...."Minutes inaccurate"?! Handy but my gut says "bull$hit"!!!
BigGuy Posted March 6, 2009 Posted March 6, 2009 .....cycling wholesalers and retailers were invited to gather.... As an attendee of the meeting, Cycle Lab believes that the conference was aimed ..... Who organised this whole thing? Fritz Pienaar?
The Hawk CT Posted March 6, 2009 Posted March 6, 2009 erm..so wot now..do we start with immediate effect boycotting these shops? i am of the opinion that these facy retailers ripppp off new guys coming into the sport of cycling only to find out that they could have got it 10 - 20% cheaper just down the road...
The Hawk CT Posted March 6, 2009 Posted March 6, 2009 Sorry!! Don't buy it! The first part was what was released at the time of the exposure on the hub...."Minutes inaccurate"?! Handy but my gut says "bull$hit"!!! it was a well thought up response ...
jagwil Posted March 6, 2009 Posted March 6, 2009 This is all quite amazing. Despite the fact that South African Law is based on the principle that you are innocent until proven guilty, the majority of the hubbers out there have acted as prosecutor and judge and have pronounced these bike shops "GUILTY" without having heard all the evidence and without having afforded the bike shops the opportunity of having a fair hearing. It is actually quite frightening to see how quick most people are to judge other people and to cry for their blood without having all the facts.jagwil2009-03-06 21:07:26
Bergbok Posted March 7, 2009 Posted March 7, 2009 I suggest everybody reads a post Fritz made last year when the minutes first appeared. Might shed some much needed light on the situation. https://www.bikehub.co.za/forum_posts.asp?TID=33149&PN=19 Page 19
Tumbleweed Posted March 7, 2009 Posted March 7, 2009 I suggest everybody reads a post Fritz made last year when the minutes first appeared. Might shed some much needed light on the situation. ? https://www.bikehub.co.za/forum_posts.asp?TID=33149&PN=19 ? Page 19 i don't see his post on that page.
Jules Posted March 7, 2009 Posted March 7, 2009 I think Bergbok might be referring to the e-mail, which was supposedly sent by Fritz to other retailers. From: Fritz Pienaar [mailto:mm@firebreak.co.za] Sent: 17 September 2008 12:27 PM Subject: Minutes - margins in the bicycling industry Dear bicycle wholesaler and retailer, Thank you for your support and great response in making our industry more healthy. For those of you who were unaware of this meeting here is a quick refresher: "I am sure that most of you are aware that there are a lot of concerns in the retail bicycle industry. There is a lot of rumours about retail shops that are struggling and wholesalers that are not getting paid. This causes a lot of problems for everyone in the industry and I?m sure that you would agree that it is not a healthy position to be in. I have had numerous meetings with retail shops and wholesalers over the last couple of months and everyone seems to agree that the retail shops are not making enough profit and that something needs to be done about it. The bicycle wholesalers agree that a healthier retail industry would also allow for a healthier wholesale industry." We've had a great response from the meeting on 10th September 2008! With all the mayor bicycle wholesalers and retailers in Gauteng, we've all come to agreement that raising the margins is the resolution to the problem. It is of utmost importance that we sign-up and state that you support this decision, we need everyone?s support to be able to make this change and to be able to implement these changes right away. Click here to see the attendance of the meeting on 10th September 2008 Click here to see the meeting on 10th September 2008 minutes Please click here, to state if you are supportive of higher margins in the Bicycling Retail sector (We recommend that you read the minutes if you were not present at the meeting) Regards, Fritz Pienaar 083 275 2123 PS. Please forward this to all bike shops you know of, or wholesalers that did not attend. I'm not sure if this e-mail is genuine. If it is, its purpose seems very clear. Jules2009-03-07 06:47:30
Bergbok Posted March 7, 2009 Posted March 7, 2009 I was refering to this:Hi everyone, I was never a member of this forum and was asked to join and comment on this discussion - I cannot believe that it generated so much interest. To put everything in perspective ? I will need to give you quite a lot of info, so here goes:The idea of increasing our retail margins did not come from me or Andrew, or even from bicycle retailers, but the suggestion came from some of the major wholesalers who felt that the industry needed some structure and regulation -similar to the motor industry. Most of the major wholesalers (26 wholesalers) came together in March of this year to try and form this association with some of the goals below:? Appeal to government to drop import duties on bikes, helmets etc. Import duties are taxes levied to protect local manufacturing of which there are none at the moment. This would bring prices down and make cycling more affordable to the public.? Increasing the suggested retail prices on bikes which would allow more margins for retailers. Stronger retailers would pay better, hire better staff, have better looking shops and ultimately provide a better front for the supplier?s brand. ? Appoint independent auditors to do audits of existing and new shops to establish if they are financially strong enough to service their account or to open new accounts. This wholesale association never materialized as the wholesalers could not agree on the point concerning the import duties. Some wholesalers see the duties as their competitive advantage and don?t pay duties by importing frames and components in separate containers and assembling it locally. They can then add 15% to their price and make more profit and still be competitive with other brands that have to import their bikes as complete units. I agreed with the wholesale association and wanted it to succeed. I also think that the customer are being screwed by wholesalers who enforce 15% duties (without having local manufacturers to protect), to have a competitive advantage on other wholesalers. I was surprised to see these wholesalers ?comments on the forum and saying that they have the customer?s best interest at heart ? what rubbish!!As said before ? The association unfortunately did not materialize! Most of the reputable retailers wanted this to materialize as we really needed the duties to be dropped and needed to make bigger margins etc. Andrew and I had a few meetings to try urging the wholesalers to go through with the association, but it was in vain as some wholesalers refused to meet and talk with other players in the industry. I then contacted some of the major retailers and scheduled a meeting to discuss some of the points that was of concern to me. This was not a closed meeting and I invited all the Gauteng wholesalers and retailers. Yes All (Cajees included)! We did discuss amongst other points the margins in the retail industry. We asked someone (outside the retail industry) to take the minutes and send it to the dealers present. This was not meant for this forum and was sent to dealers who attended the meeting and had the background on what was said. Dealers needed to read through it and advise on changes of inaccurate facts. The posting of the minutes on the forum might be a good thing, because you are now able to see what margins we really make and what we aim for. There were plenty of reasons why we needed to have this meeting ? here are some of the facts:<?: PREFIX = O />? We work on a mark-up of 35% on bikes, groupsets, shock and some accessories, which allows for a profit margin of 26%. We then often have to discount around 5% to club members, customers shopping around etc which now leaves us with a profit margin of around 21%.Retail shop is also not cheap to run with overheads easily reaching of 150K ? 200K per month (R50K rent, 70K salaries etc)This means that the typical medium sized retails shop has to reach a turnover of around 800K ? 1million p/m to break even. This is in an ideal world if you don?t take theft , future servicing of the bikes, build-up and preparation costs etc into account. These margins are unheard of in a retail industry and in every other industry (except the car industry), retailers work on margins of at least double that. International bike shops also work on more than double these profit margins. ? It cost around 2 ? 4 million to open a retail shop and we need to run it as a business, meaning we need to try and make a profit. We all started in the industry because we were passionate about cycling and not because we were clever business people and saw an excellent opportunity. I (and many other shops like me) would be able to make more money if we could sell the business and invest the money. Believe me ? you don?t want the likes of Andrew leaving the retail industry, because it is a crap investment. He builds bike parks, run clubs, gives the sport amazing publicity on TV and organizes events etc. ? Retailers have always been dictated to by wholesalers who suggest retail prices, but they only allow us these small margins. We cannot sell for a higher price than advertised, so shops often die a slow death. We asked wholesalers to either not advertise these prices or to advertise prices which allows us a higher margin. We did not force anyone to stick to these prices and did not dictate to anyone, but we did explain to them that they would be more profitable if they don?t discount. ? Shops go under every Winter and this puts huge strain on our industry as the wholesalers lose money and then have to increase prices to remaining retailers to make up for the loss. These shops dump the stock on the market at wholesale prices to limit their losses, which in turn hurts the remaining retail shops. I can understand that customers get emotional about the pricing of bikes and equipment ? especially when you think that the retail shops are ripping you off. I am sure that you now would agree that this is not the case. The suggested price increase would not have been excessive and would have averaged at around 10%. I believe that this would make shops more profitable allowing them to serve you (the customer) better by employing better staff, having more stock, better looking shops, better mechanics etc. We had over 50 retailers / wholesalers present at this meeting and all of them agreed that the retailers needed to increase profits. We gave these dealers the opportunity to vote for what the increase should be and the end result will probably be in the region of a 3.5% increase. We were not trying to fix prises, but rather get away from price fixing. At this stage wholesalers take the margin they want and then advertise a retail price which is too low for retailers to make a living. We have to stick to the price that is advertised which means that the prices are fixed and we cannot decide what margin we want to make. I don?t believe that prices will increase in this process. The major wholesalers already committed to ordering huge quantities of bikes and they have to sell all their units, so they would have to start lowering their margins when the customers start voting with their wallets and buying online or not buying as many bikes. The bottom line is that you are not being ripped off by the retailers and not one retailer in SA are making huge amounts of money through retail shops. We need some restructuring to stay in business and serve you better. Stop worrying about the prices going through the roof, because that will never happen. Ride for the love of the sport and don?t be so worked-up and negative about something if you don?t have the facts. Regards,FritzEdited by Fritz Pienaar - 23 Sep 2008 at 1:44pm
Tumbleweed Posted March 7, 2009 Posted March 7, 2009 I think Bergbok might be referring to the e-mail' date=' which was supposedly sent by Fritz to other retailers. From: Fritz Pienaar [mailto:mm@firebreak.co.za'] Sent: 17 September 2008 12:27 PM Subject: Minutes - margins in the bicycling industry Dear bicycle wholesaler and retailer, Thank you for your support and great response in making our industry more healthy. For those of you who were unaware of this meeting here is a quick refresher: "I am sure that most of you are aware that there are a lot of concerns in the retail bicycle industry. There is a lot of rumours about retail shops that are struggling and wholesalers that are not getting paid. This causes a lot of problems for everyone in the industry and I?m sure that you would agree that it is not a healthy position to be in. I have had numerous meetings with retail shops and wholesalers over the last couple of months and everyone seems to agree that the retail shops are not making enough profit and that something needs to be done about it. The bicycle wholesalers agree that a healthier retail industry would also allow for a healthier wholesale industry." We've had a great response from the meeting on 10th September 2008! With all the mayor bicycle wholesalers and retailers in Gauteng, we've all come to agreement that raising the margins is the resolution to the problem. It is of utmost importance that we sign-up and state that you support this decision, we need everyone?s support to be able to make this change and to be able to implement these changes right away. Click here to see the attendance of the meeting on 10th September 2008 Click here to see the meeting on 10th September 2008 minutes Please click here, to state if you are supportive of higher margins in the Bicycling Retail sector (We recommend that you read the minutes if you were not present at the meeting) Regards, Fritz Pienaar 083 275 2123 PS. Please forward this to all bike shops you know of, or wholesalers that did not attend. I'm not sure if this e-mail is genuine. If it is, its purpose seems very clear. jules, that is indeed the original mail i received.
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