Tumbleweed Posted March 20, 2009 Share Do you agree that most are just rehashing and crucifying. yes, sorry for not being clear about it. am distracted. otherwise occupied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porky Posted March 20, 2009 Share Jagwil We are all here because we are passionate and emotional about cycling. Not true. I am emotional and passionate about fair, honest and ethical BUSINESS practices. I would react the same way were it any industry. Holy, its not about revenge and its not good enough to say everybody has made mistakes - its way past that. Do we forgive the thug that broke into your house recently, cos he made a mistake, or the mugger who stole my wifes purse, or the thief who leans into your window and brazenly steals your wallet - NO of course not, I can forgive my secretary forgetting to tell me my wife phoned or that the car is ready from service, but brazenly going ahead with a meeting where the intention is to price set - no I cant forgive that.! What would I want to happen? Well, I believe they deserve a fine, and a stiff one at that, I also believe that the public need to start standing up for themselves and start becoming shopping activists instead of just consumers - stop supporting them if you believe their actions were wrong (and I do and will). We all cry about the level of service and support in this country in every industry from safety pins to motor vehicles, yet we are so complacent as consumers, we just shut up and accept everything thrown at us.? WHY? If you want a service level like seen in the USA and other countries, get up of your butt and start complaining, boycott shops if you disgree with their morals and ethics, (look at the fur trade, just a few years ago it was booming, now few people will be seen dead in real fur and the shamefull practices used in killing these animals is in heavy decline) lobby consumer bodies etc - if you like the status quo - well then just sit back and do nothing.! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted March 20, 2009 Share Well said Porky, I have to agree 100% with your sentiments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delgado Posted March 20, 2009 Share It is clear that you don't know Fritz Pienaar. He is one of the most honest guys I have ever met. Why would they invite ALL the members of the cycling industry if they wanted to form a cartel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Dassie Posted March 20, 2009 Share Except this isn't about service delivery, it's about price fixing. Many of the retailers mentioned are also noted for good service.Value is about more than just goods pricing, fixed or not. I've been to bike shops and online retailers where pricing has been good and the service complete crap. Sometimes it makes a difference to me, sometimes I couldn't care less.Yet I personally wouldn't always correlate honest business ethics, practice and pricing together. As for forgivness, well thats something different for each persons belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumbleweed Posted March 20, 2009 Share so, let's all stop throwing the crap around, and talk resolution. brandon's got the right idea. the matter's being dealt with. let's go forward. where to now? both andrew and fritz will continue to play a huge part in the sport and the industry. they will, of course, have this stigma attached to them. they will get past it. from having spoken to both of them - and many others involved - about what happened, i know they have it in them to dig deep and get the strength to get through it. do i wish them ill? no. i simply don't have it in me. i hope the commission deliberations are speedy and this matter is laid to rest, and will no longer afford anyone the platform for wild and dangerous speculation. i have to commend some hubbers for well thought out views on the subject. for some others, there is no hope. glass houses and all that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawieO Posted March 20, 2009 Share This from FPC early this morning: Fritz Pienaar Cycles response to the announcement by the Competition Commission that it intends to launch an enquiry into alleged price-fixing by the cycle retail industry and thereby implicating Fritz Pienaar Cycles as one of the parties allegedly involved: We firmly deny any involvement in any alleged scheme to break the law and create a so-called cartel to fix prices or margins in the cycle retail industry. We did attend an open forum discussion in Johannesburg last year that was convened to discuss the challenges facing the bicycle industry as a whole. More than 40 retailers and wholesalers were present at the discussion. The intentions of this meeting were honourable, and all those present set out to find solutions to challenges facing the industry that would benefit the wholesalers, retailers and consumers. The enquiry appears to be based on minutes of this open forum discussion, which are inaccurate and most certainly not a true reflection of the intentions of the parties concerned. We welcome the enquiry into this matter and pledge our full support to the Competition Commission. At Fritz Pienaar Cycles, we remain committed to our customers and hope that this exercise will help lead to a healthier, more stable bicycle industry that benefits the consumer. Fritz Pienaar Director - Fritz Pienaar Cycles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudda Posted March 20, 2009 Share Originally posted by holy roller ok,ok, enough. what would make you happy? they screwed up. they're facingup to it the best way they can. what sort of punishment would appeaseyou all? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No need for punishment at all. What we really need is: 1) Competition amongst existing enterprisese2) Threats of substitute products or services3) Bargaining power of buyers4) Social responsibility to consumers and customers (No misleading advertising, proper information about products/services, avoiding unlawful competition)5) Social responsibility to employees (Developing a quality workforce)6) Responsibility to the investor and financial community (No deceptive accounting reports)7) The consumers right to be informed (The provision of objective information to make rational choices)8) The consumers right to freedom of choice (Giving the consumer access to competitive products or substitutes) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumbleweed Posted March 20, 2009 Share Originally posted by holy rollerok' date=' ok, enough. what would make you happy? they screwed up. they're facing up to it the best way they can. what sort of punishment would appease you all?---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------No need for punishment at all. What we really need is: 1) Competition amongst existing enterprisese2) Threats of substitute products or services3) Bargaining power of buyers4) Social responsibility to consumers and customers (No misleading advertising, proper information about products/services, avoiding unlawful competition)5) Social responsibility to employees (Developing a quality workforce)6) Responsibility to the investor and financial community? (No deceptive accounting reports)7) The consumers right to be informed (The provision of objective information to make rational choices)8) The consumers right to freedom of choice (Giving the consumer access to competitive products or substitutes) [/quote'] now that's constructive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowbee Posted March 20, 2009 Share Umh' date=' again consider this. What good does higher prices do for the development of cycling? More expensive bikes to save a luxury industry. South Africa since Oom Paul have always liked and understood concessions monopolies and cartels. I think the entire idea is very short sighted. A sort of get rich quick before cyclists get smart scheme. I still cannot understand that two South African Champions, who should know and understand the situation of cyclists should take the side of the retailer/wholesaler over the consumer/cyclist. Me thinks they are no longer in it for the love of cycling but rather now in it for the love of money. Maybe they can become exercise consultants to the Rhema church.[/quote'] YOU !! you owe me a new screen, keyboard and deskpad!!!! bloody hell, just sphongle splurted my tea all over !! Dammit. Had a good laugh oh yes .. good post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guy in Pink Posted March 20, 2009 Share No need for punishment at all. What we really need is: 1) Competition amongst existing enterprisese2) Threats of substitute products or services3) Bargaining power of buyers4) Social responsibility to consumers and customers (No misleading advertising' date=' proper information about products/services, avoiding unlawful competition)5) Social responsibility to employees (Developing a quality workforce)6) Responsibility to the investor and financial community (No deceptive accounting reports)7) The consumers right to be informed (The provision of objective information to make rational choices)8) The consumers right to freedom of choice (Giving the consumer access to competitive products or substitutes)[/quote'] We already have 1, 2, 3, 7 & 8 in place, if you make use of online suppliers. Take a look at my cycling expenses in the last 3 years.Chain Reaction Cycles R13 307.82Total Cycling R45 040.52My LBS Cycle Centre R72 244.37 So 40% of my expenses is overseas online sales. By paying upfront I am able to get cost + 10% on large items with my LBS. He gets a sale and the use of my money for about 6 weeks before he has to pay his supplier. The downside with my LBS is his service is about a week slower than Chainreaction, but on a par with Total Cycling. (I also have added to my online orders to supply my LBS!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racman Posted March 21, 2009 Share Am I the only one who has noticed that prices HAVE actually gone up 25-40%!!!!!!????? I think what is continuing to fan the flame of hubbers indignation is the constant denial from FP that the minutes are inaccurate - extremely naive and pathetic attempt at evading the real issue. I also don't actually care whether all parties are honest, do not kick the dog or beat their wives, go to church on Sundays, Mosque on Fridays, ride a Porsche or a Panda, a Mini or a Mercedes (although I wont go as far as ShimaNO or Campagnolo ), give to charity or pay their taxes. The fact that they even attended or organized the meeting is an indictment of the cycling industry and I for one am disgusted by this action! I will NOT support any of the businesses of those who attended. Please understand that this is not a judgment of the outcome of the commission or the personalities mentioned but as a result of the absolute arrogance and hypocricy displayed ! Andrew, Fritz, Brandon, Anton and co - I am sure you are all great and honourable people, but what I am disgusted in is the sheer duplicity and assumption that all cyclists and/or people on this forum are either naive or stupid. What was done was conniving and immoral and the fact that it has been done by others and no doubt still is being done by other industries does not make it any less immoral. I have been guilty of enough wrongdoing in my life to knowthat the plea of "let's just forgive and forget" should not and does not exonerate anyone from law of consequence. Whether this incident fades away in the murky mists of the history of cycling in SA or not is not an indication of right or wrong. The true test is never open to public scrutiny and that is the intention of the heart! I wish you all well as you look at yourselves in the mirror - may you be satisfied with what you see.racman2009-03-21 01:12:05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowbee Posted March 21, 2009 Share I have recently started a new job in sales. The debate around the various issues on hand here have been worth more than any MBA course. The discussions and points have proven to be very usefull to take into my current work environment. It has been especially interesting to read how hubbers have felt where there has been a break down in trust and more importantly how they respond to that. Thanks for the healthy debate. Long may things like this continue (but just not around this topic). Slowbee2009-03-21 06:29:36 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoLefty!! Posted March 21, 2009 Share It is clear that you don't know Fritz Pienaar. He is one of the most honest guys I have ever met. Why would they invite ALL the members of the cycling industry if they wanted to form a cartel? Veteraan, dink hieroor, dink net so a klein beitje.Die antwoord sal jou somma mors dood slaan... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDEE Posted March 21, 2009 Share I take the hardline view and find myself in agreement with Go Lefty, Porky and Racman. Its the breakdown in trust that gets me big time. And of course the flat denials of what the intention of the meeting was. What would have happened if the minutes and the email were never made known..????????? No apology, no denial, no explanation from Brandon, etc, etc.. Whether the actual increase in margin would have taken place is unknown ( too many players, too many politics ), but I will stake my life that one or two Lbs would been threatened by suppliers for not sticking to RRP... If Probike can threaten another supplier like the verified email did, can you imagine what pressure a Lbs would be under!!! The denials, nice posts, support from some, etc, etc impress me not a wit.. I say it again, if those minutes and emails were never made public, we would be even poorer than we are in relation to cycling. Make a profit by all means, charge what you like, I dont care, I might still buy from you If I need it today. But........ never take me/us for fools... which is exactly what the serious spin doctoring that is going on here is attempting.. Long live whistleblowers!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porky Posted March 21, 2009 Share I take the hardline view and find myself in agreement with Go Lefty' date=' Porky and Racman.Its the breakdown in trust that gets me big time. And of course the flat denials of what the intention of the meeting was.What would have happened if the minutes and the email were never made known..????????? No apology, no denial, no explanation from Brandon, etc, etc.. Whether the actual increase in margin would have taken place is unknown ( too many players, too many politics ), but I will stake my life that one or two Lbs would been threatened by suppliers for not sticking to RRP... If Probike can threaten another supplier like the verified email did, can you imagine what pressure a Lbs would be under!!!The denials, nice posts, support from some, etc, etc impress me not a wit..I say it again, if those minutes and emails were never made public, we would be even poorer than we are in relation to cycling.Make a profit by all means, charge what you like, I dont care, I might still buy from you If I need it today. But........ never take me/us for fools... which is exactly what the serious spin doctoring that is going on here is attempting..Long live whistleblowers!!![/quote'] My sentiments exactly KDEE, things were done / said / decided / whatever in the dark, someone threw the light switch and all was exposed. Now its all an error, a big mistake, we didnt know, the records are inaccurate and everuones running for cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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