YES! I like Carbon!

[MJ the Expat]

Yes, I know - you either like it, or you don't. For those of you that don't like it, it has always been an issue of durability, right? Just recently I have heard this joke from a guy with a NINER to a guy with a Carbon Zaskar Team: So how many DAYS old is the frame?<?: prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

 

Me? I like Carbon. Honestly, I don't see what the fuss is really about as to the durability of Carbon!!! I think it is just paranoia.

 

Yes carbon can break. But so can ALU!!! And I don't think it is because carbon is not made for a MTB. You see, I don't think you can treat a carbon frame the same way you treat an ALU frame. Most of us grew up on ALU and STEEL frames. So we still want to treat our CARBON frames the same way we did with our steel and ALU frames.

 

Carbon is like Penelope Cruz and ALU is like Angelina Jolie. (And steel would be like a 200kg hairy massage therapist...) You dig homie?

[dollar]

Hey - lets not get ugly with steel!

 

Steel remains a fine and graceful material to make frames out of - if you ride like I do that is

 

It obviously has a weight penalty, but has a lot of other things going for it. I dont think that it is dead and gone either. I think that modern technology may still come up with something spectacular soon - and it will be based on steel.

 

The problem with steel frames (apart from their weight) is that they are just not "sexy" enough. Aluminium came along and everyone had to have one, even though the early aluminium frames really were not that much lighter than the top steel frames of the day.

 

Obviously ally frames have come a long way and they are much lighter now and they break more often.

 

If you are cycling competitivly then you have to follow the technology - so you probably have to have a carbon frame. And when they make a plasic frame that's half the weight again then I guess everyone will have to get one too.

 

Carbon is pretty sexy stuff - volatile almost. I know very little about it but from what I have read it's a fairly complex (compared to metals) process to make a decent carbon frame. There is a lot going on under that gell coat (is it called a gell coat?) that some anon Chinese lad has built. That's my problem with this stuff - how do you tell the good from the bad - other than by destructive testing - by riding it?

 

[Procrates]

 

 

 

 

MJ, have you ever ridden a modern steel or even titanium for that matter?

How can you be that nasty to steel then, both these materials give you way better ride quality than carbon.

[MJ the Expat]

What? People still use steel bikes?????

[EigerSA]

The biggest problem with steel bikes here in South Africa is that we're not exposed to what you can really do with some steel! Spend a little time looking up frame builders around the world and see what could be! Steel is used to build frames at weights that rival both alu and carbon, and offer a ride that is more comfy. There's loads of advantages to using steel, longevity being just one. It's just unfortunate we're not exposed to these frames here at the end of the world, our choices are limited to what the big guys decide to import and that's it.

 

Oh and I'm a huge carbon fan and believe it's the material of the future... but steel is real!

 

[gummibear]

I like carbon to but i won't ride it.I personally don't like the feel of carbon.

Alu and steel can be repaired cheaply.

Have a look here

 

http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2009_09_01_archive.html

[Procrates]

 

 

A lot of the brainwashing is due to the advertising of bikes in SA.

"Oo this one is stiffer" but most people don't realise that stiffer is not always better, you lose comfort. And MTB'ing is growing so quickly that most new buyers believe any bull$hit they hear.

 

 

 

Procrates2009-10-04 02:14:28

[Delgado]

The major difference I find is that when steel starts to crack/break it gives you a long warning before it goes completely whereas carbon gives you "Hincapiesque" notice!!!

 

The second aspect is that whilst it is heavier than carbon the ride is far more comfortable and forgiving on a steel machine.

[dollar]

I had a look at the "busted carbon" site.

 

Although I am not a carbon fan, I think that the site is unfair to carbon in general. Many (most?) of the bust carbon I saw was as a result of impact damage - crashes, accidents, bashes etc.

 

Lots of peple are crashing carbon bikes cause lots of peple ride them!

 

[gummibear]

Look at the stems and bars and forks that are not impact related.that's what worries me.

[dollar]

Ja - agreed.

 

There is a lot of stuff that "just" breaks. That's the problem with this stuff - how do you know that it's defective? Only as you pass your bust fork on your way onto the tar?

 

Steel comes apart with a certain element of subtlety?

 

[swoosh1973]

Ok guys finally a topic I feel qualified to talk about. What makes me qualified? For starter I have been in the composites industry for more than 14 years. This is my profession and this is the way I earn my living. I work for the largest resins manufacturer in the southern hemisphere. And have a further 6 years experience with thermosetting and composites applications. Which includes work with carbon prepregs, infusion and hot press molding. <?: prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

 

The biggest problem with carbon and composites in general that it allows the manufacturer to dictate where, how much and how to apply the reinforcement.

The reality is few composites converters are structural engineers. I have been to visit and seen the inside of over 340 factories from boat builders to the manufacturers of bullet proof vests.

 

So how do they work out how much of what to put in and what type of resin system to use? Most don?t!  They figure it out by doing their own often crude destructive tests! Or asking companies such as what I work for to do the flexurals and tensile tests. My guys are chemists not engineers.

Remember the lighter it is the cheaper it is to build. A 200gram/m2 meter 12K carbon cloth retails for R400/meter in SA. In the <?: prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />USon> and china the same thing purchase in bulk will be landed at about R180/meter. The resins can cost in the order of R150,/kg for a high performance system. So if you figure that the carbon to resin ratios are in the region 40-60% fiber versus resin you can then calculate roughly that the costs without autoclaves and post curing will be about R2400/kg of carbon or so(in SA). Now that does not include the tooling and the fact that to lay up and produce a part such as a frame can take upward of 24-48hours per part! It is not like fiberglass hot press parts where you can get an item ever 7 minutes. In epoxies even fast systems are slow. You then begin to understand why these parts are so expensive.

 

Now steel and aluminum on the other hand come in different grades and thicknesses, and often steel fabricators simply don?t make tubes or sheets bellow a minimum thickness for a number of reasons such as too thin poses welding problems etc. This coupled with the low cost of these products make them very suitable for converters with a low risk of mechanical failure. Most of the structural designing is taken out of the hands of the fabricator. You try and order a 1mm alu tube and weld it. See what the supplier says. He will get very worried? Humph much easier welding thicker and tougher tubes using less qualified personnel and cheaper equipment. You see this is not left entirely to the manufacturer like carbon and other composites.

 

Now if it breaks it's simply the manufacturer?s fault not Carbon FULL STOP END OF THE F&c8ng discussion. How can I be so brazen? Well consider the following when used correctly by properly qualified structural engineers that have done tests the following products get made with composites.

 

1) Helicopter blades

2) Many airplanes components including wings for motorized gliders and twin seat planes, Masts of high performance yachts, tails (jumbo jets). Bullet proof vests, Windmill turbine blades for generation of electrical power generation, Automotive and high performance sports car bodies and chassis from upturned fiber such as Lamborghini, F1 Ferrari?s and their chassis. Motorbike rims yes motorbike rims! Also many military applications.

 

When you find that your trek road bikes frame weighs less than 900grams---you need to get worried very worried when a 90kg chap gets on it. Quite frankly I am surprised that a 60kg athlete that races the tour de France does not breaking the frames as they get on the bikes.

 

So for that website "busted Carbon". Truthfully if that bloke who did the website did his homework he would not have so much egg on his face.

 

Fact is every material has its place. For example I personally do not believe that carbon should be used for MTB wheels. Why not? Not because carbon can?t take it but because of the nature, design of spokes the alu wheels can be made so light it is a better option than carbon. Also the aluminum has malleability in catastrophic impacts making it a far safer option! Now I mentioned motorbike wheels. Yep but look at how wide they are and also the overall shape as well as the sleek aggressive look. To do the same with tempered alu will be far heavier  so carbon is the material of choice here. I like all sorts of materials and believe the best material for the right job.

 

Don?t trash carbon, don?t trash steel, and don?t trash alu. Trash the manufacturer for bad selection and use of materials!

The good new is composites is still evolving. Look out for Basalt fiber, half the price of carbon, almost as light but will not snap catastrophicaly. Downside is its not as stiff. But hey in composites you can combine the 2 right..00h COPOSITE- to combine 2 or more materials that compliment each other producing a structure far stronger than either materials on their own! Lesson over

[Slowbee]

Now this was a good read, and i didnt need to go to some other blokes MTB ask me a question hijack site.

[DawieO]

Always good to get an opinion from a pro.

[dollar]

Thanks Iraqr - very informative!

[Procrates]

 

 

 

 

Point taken, iragr

I still think very few people do some research into bikes and products before they buy. Whatever material it may be.

So the general rule is of? ? LIGHT ?, ?CHEAP ? and STRONG, you can choose 2?