Wheel Bearing: Deep groove ball or cup and cone?

[greatwhite]

I got this post while selling a set of XT wheels (along with my reply to which In never got an answer)

 

thing with them is they still use the cone and ball bearings' date=' making them not as smooth as sealed ones.

other than that nice set.

[/quote']

 

?????

 

You seem to have a misperception that full compliment cup and cone bearings are not as smooth as deep groove ball bearing (btw, both types are sealed). Please explain what brings you to this conclusion?

 

I am keen to here peoples perceptions with regard the the 2 bearing configurations....

[droo]

Both work. Both are smooth if maintained properly. Cup and cone bearings can be serviced, cartridge bearings need to be replaced when they get crunchy.

 

 

 

The only downside to cup and cone bearings (that I know of) is that if you don't service them and the cups become pitted, you need to replace the hubs - pitted cones and worn balls can be replaced seperately.

[Johan Bornman]

I think Droo summed it up nicely. All I can add is that even with pitted cups, the hubs are still usable, albeit not as smooth as before. This smoothness has no tangible effect on rolling resistance though.

I like the serviceability of cup and cone hubs and the low cost thereof. Hoever, every now and then I do see the advantage of throw-away cartridge bearings - especially when someone else is paying for them. They now average R90 each.

[jugheaddave]

are shimano the only cup and cone hub makers left?

 

or are there other brand hubs that use cup and cone??

 

[Minion]

 

or are there other brand hubs that use cup and cone??

 

Campagnolo Record hubs are cup and cone and all their wheels from Eurus up also have cup and cone hubs.

 

[Johan Bornman]

Plenty of cup-and-cone left. Xero, Joytech, Novatech (same company, I think) and plenty of others I can't think of now.

 

Where's my jinko beloba?

[greatwhite]

Comments from all the usual suspects.....

 

The advantage of throw away bearings in not lost on me and the it can be very attractive to some people. If you are paying R90 for a bearing you are getting ripped off - you can get most of the bearings for about R20 if you speak to the right people. When you look at it from that perspective it is probably cheaper than cones for Campag Record or Shimano Dura Ace.

 

I believe the main reason so many manufacturer use deep groove balls has nothing to do with improving the product, but rather eliminating tooling cost - you don't have the cost to produce cups and cones, just buy hugely mass produced deep groove balls which are dirt cheap (as an OEM, expect to pay less than R5/bearing)

 

In general, I prefer the cup and cone concept. It is:

1. full complement - i.e. no cage and hence nearly twice as many bearings in the same space to carry the load. This means the point load per bearing is nearly half - the result there of is a massive life improvement (not double, but in the order of 10 times)

2. Misalignment (and the premature failure that results) is a non issue with cones on a straight shaft

 

I know I have done good miles with my D/A hubs and one guy on the forum claimed to have done nearly 100000km on his 7700 D/A hubs - show me deep groove balls that do that......

 

 

[GoLefty!!]

cup and cone everytime.

replaceable acartridge bearings are excellent but then they have to be angular contact bearings like those in Chris KIng Hubs. Deep groove bearings don;t last.

[Johan Bornman]

cup and cone everytime.

replaceable acartridge bearings are excellent but then they have to be angular contact bearings like those in Chris KIng Hubs. Deep groove bearings don;t last.

 

I often wonder about that. My conclusion was that the seals that protect the cartridge bearings are not good enough. I'm talking about the hub's seals, not the bearing's seals - these could be labyrinth or contact seals.

 

Why do you say angular contact is better suited to the application than deep groove?

[Johan Bornman]

Comments from all the usual suspects.....

 

The advantage of throw away bearings in not lost on me and the it can be very attractive to some people. If you are paying R90 for a bearing you are getting ripped off - you can get most of the bearings for about R20 if you speak to the right people. When you look at it from that perspective it is probably cheaper than cones for Campag Record or Shimano Dura Ace.

  

 

GW, reveal your sources. Where in this town can you get a quality (Japanese, German or Swedish) cartridge bearing of wheel size for R20? Indian and Chinese ones are plentiful, but they're crap.

 

 

[greatwhite]

cup and cone everytime.

replaceable acartridge bearings are excellent but then they have to be angular contact bearings like those in Chris KIng Hubs. Deep groove bearings don;t last.

 

........

Why do you say angular contact is better suited to the application than deep groove?

 

Angular contact have better latter force handling characteristics - the net effect is like a cup and cone arrangement - also they are only generally made by the big name suppliers and of better quality because:

1. volumes are so much lower

2. they are inevitably used in more specialised equipment which is more likely to be 'under the microscope' so to speak.

 

 

......- you can get most of the bearings for about R20 if you speak to the right people.....  

 

GW' date=' reveal your sources. Where in this town can you get a quality (Japanese, German or Swedish) cartridge bearing of wheel size for R20? Indian and Chinese ones are plentiful, but they're crap.

 

[/quote']

 

Agreed, some of the indian and chinese stuff is crap. I'll see what can dig for you supplierwise - I normally buy direct from SKF OEM, but appreciate that this is not a channel open to most folks

[Johan Bornman]

 

Angular contact have better latter force handling characteristics - the net effect is like a cup and cone arrangement - also they are only generally made by the big 

 

 cut cut cut cut cut cut

 

 

 

But on a bicycle wheel there is no lateral force to speak of.  In corners the force is still perfectly radial and when standing and pedaling the lateral force is so small that the wheel doesn't flex enought o fill the 1mm gap between rim and brake pad.

 

 

 

......- you can get most of the bearings for about R20 if you speak to the right people.....  

 

GW' date=' reveal your sources. Where in this town can you get a quality (Japanese, German or Swedish) cartridge bearing of wheel size for R20? Indian and Chinese ones are plentiful, but they're crap.

 

[/quote']

 

Agreed, some of the indian and chinese stuff is crap. I'll see what can dig for you supplierwise - I normally buy direct from SKF OEM, but appreciate that this is not a channel open to most folks

 

I want to go one step further. I've never come across a good Chinese or Indian bearing. NEVER. I'm not saying they dont' exist, but I've never come across them. Maybe someone can point me to a good brand from one of those countries.

 

I get back to my point. It is impossible to get a good quality cartridge bearing - say 6000 series - for less than R90-00, give or take a little deal-making discount.

 

Several people here on The Hub have in the past offered to source bearings for me and all of the efforts have come to nothing.

 

As far as I'm concerned, a cartridge bearing hub owner must prepare for a R270 bearing cost at each service. Some better hubs even have four cartridge bearings, so the service starts at R360-00, before labour. That's a whack.

 

Compare it to R30 cost of spares for a cup-and-cone bearing.

 

 

[greatwhite]

 

But on a bicycle wheel there is no lateral force to speak of.  In corners the force is still perfectly radial and when standing and pedaling the lateral force is so small that the wheel doesn't flex enought o fill the 1mm gap between rim and brake pad.

 

 

In an ideal world yes' date=' but we know that people don't remain seated all the time with their CoG directly in line with wheel all the time

 

 

 

 

As far as I'm concerned, a cartridge bearing hub owner must prepare for a R270 bearing cost at each service. Some better hubs even have four cartridge bearings, so the service starts at R360-00, before labour. That's a whack.

 

Compare it to R30 cost of spares for a cup-and-cone bearing.

 

 

For cheaper cup and cone bearing arrangements maybe R30 - for Record or Dura Ace, I assure you it will be a whole lot more

[GoLefty!!]

cup and cone everytime.

replaceable acartridge bearings are excellent but then they have to be angular contact bearings like those in Chris KIng Hubs. Deep groove bearings don;t last.

 

I often wonder about that. My conclusion was that the seals that protect the cartridge bearings are not good enough. I'm talking about the hub's seals' date=' not the bearing's seals - these could be labyrinth or contact seals.

 

Why do you say angular contact is better suited to the application than deep groove?

[/quote']

 

 

Angular contact are capable of accepting preload. Preoload is what keeps the surfaces running in constant contact. Deep Groove bearings do not allow preload. they are designed for machine shafts that operate in one plane under constant lod and speed copupled to a thrust bearing at the end of the shaft to take up any lateral thrust.

 

In a bicycle wheel,even though we spend a lot of time upright, cornering with a wheel that has even the slightest amount of play results in the bearings running out of the normal running line, increasing wear and  friction. Hence any vehicle with wheels has wheel bearing that can be preloaded. Except boutique bicycle wheels that is. A triumph of marketing over engineering..

[Johan Bornman]

cup and cone everytime.

replaceable acartridge bearings are excellent but then they have to be angular contact bearings like those in Chris KIng Hubs. Deep groove bearings don;t last.

 

I often wonder about that. My conclusion was that the seals that protect the cartridge bearings are not good enough. I'm talking about the hub's seals' date=' not the bearing's seals - these could be labyrinth or contact seals.

 

Why do you say angular contact is better suited to the application than deep groove?

[/quote']

 

 

Angular contact are capable of accepting preload. Preoload is what keeps the surfaces running in constant contact. Deep Groove bearings do not allow preload. they are designed for machine shafts that operate in one plane under constant lod and speed copupled to a thrust bearing at the end of the shaft to take up any lateral thrust.

 

In a bicycle wheel,even though we spend a lot of time upright, cornering with a wheel that has even the slightest amount of play results in the bearings running out of the normal running line, increasing wear and  friction. Hence any vehicle with wheels has wheel bearing that can be preloaded. Except boutique bicycle wheels that is. A triumph of marketing over engineering..

 

Preload. Aha! Of course.