Goodbadugly Posted January 10, 2011 Share I am aware that the discussions around tubeless vs tubes has seen many cycling forums.The plus points of the tubeless systems always being quoted ad nauseam. The less punctures, less snake bites and my all time favorite: the lower rolling resistance.The rolling Resistance always being quoted as the killer blow. Are there any hubbers that can refer me to a valid article where research has been done by an independent company/persons to prove that this is true for mtb tires filled with slime? Or were the results for car tires just interpolated?The reason why I put this to you(and I know this has been discussed before) is that I changed my training wheels back to tubes (and tire liners) 3 months ago. Pressures around 2.0-2.5 bar. Like most of us, training consists of dirt roads and tar. (Yes, I also know that some people state it is a sin to ride on tar with a mtb)Results? I would be less than honest if I tell you that I could feel the difference. And not a single puncture. I know it is level 4 evidence, but still...A folding tires weighs 500 grams apiece. Add another 200 grams for a standard tube and 100 gram for the liner. That is 800 gram. A UST tire (Crossmark) weighs 690 gram. If you add the valve and the slime, you end up at the same figure.When I started my "experiment" with tubes, I noted that the wheel spun much more freely without slime when the bike was standing on saddle and handle bars. The Stans of whatever rapidly slowed down the wheel at slower wheel speeds when centrifugal forces did not "stick" the slime to the periphery. Not so with the tubes. So next time you motivate your ultra low weight mtb wheel set by saying that for the "stop and go" effect of mtb-ing you need lighter wheels, keep the sloshing effect in mind.Don't get me wrong. If I do stage races, I will still be TUBELESS. I am only saying that tubes are not so bad for the average rider. I also hate a puncture, but tube tires are just so much easier to get off the rim, so much easier to install. And no Joe's to spill on the garage floor or to try to get it off your clothes/legs/bike when you suffer a significant puncture on your back wheel.I am aware that at least 80% of you will try to torch or stone me. O tell me about Tubeless ready tires.Maybe it is because I have to start to use Salusa 45 this year that I feel like doing the retro-thing. I will be doing the Barberton 75km mtb on tubes. Please smile when you pass the guy with the Amarula shirt while he is fixing his punctures.The final straw was when I stepped on the Joe's bottle spilling half the contents this morning. And the extra final straw was when the UST Crossmark popped over the Stans rim bead when I inflated it with the compressor to try to get it seated, thus "exploding" off the rim showering me with a fair helping of Joe's while coating the front of my car with a fine spray of latex. And this at only 4 bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelI65 Posted January 10, 2011 Share I ran tubeless on my 26er, never had a flat, so swore never to use a tube again. Got a 29er which came with tubes and slime so reluctantly decided to see how it worked out. So far, touch huge amounts of wood, zero punctures. Most of my riding is done on dirt, forest and jeep track with lots of loose sand and rocks. Typical Karoo conditions. I've also done a lot of experimenting with tyre pressure and currently run 2.0 bar front and 2.4 bar rear which seems to work well. No pinch flats yet! This is after 3,000 km of riding. Not sure what all this means in the great debate of tubes vs tubeless but my 2c worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyG Posted January 10, 2011 Share been riding tubes and pink raleigh slime(R50 buks from makro) for 3 years now..on 3 diff mtb's and i pull out thorns every day..(i ride lots of singletrack and bush) never had a flat thinking of switching over to tubeless to see what all the hype is about..still thinking hard on it as i have never had a puncture in 3 years and its a costly switch for me.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R3SL Posted January 10, 2011 Share I am aware that the discussions around tubeless vs tubes has seen many cycling forums.The plus points of the tubeless systems always being quoted ad nauseam. The less punctures, less snake bites and my all time favorite: the lower rolling resistance.The rolling Resistance always being quoted as the killer blow. Are there any hubbers that can refer me to a valid article where research has been done by an independent company/persons to prove that this is true for mtb tires filled with slime? Or were the results for car tires just interpolated?The reason why I put this to you(and I know this has been discussed before) is that I changed my training wheels back to tubes (and tire liners) 3 months ago. Pressures around 2.0-2.5 bar. Like most of us, training consists of dirt roads and tar. (Yes, I also know that some people state it is a sin to ride on tar with a mtb)Results? I would be less than honest if I tell you that I could feel the difference. And not a single puncture. I know it is level 4 evidence, but still...A folding tires weighs 500 grams apiece. Add another 200 grams for a standard tube and 100 gram for the liner. That is 800 gram. A UST tire (Crossmark) weighs 690 gram. If you add the valve and the slime, you end up at the same figure.When I started my "experiment" with tubes, I noted that the wheel spun much more freely without slime when the bike was standing on saddle and handle bars. The Stans of whatever rapidly slowed down the wheel at slower wheel speeds when centrifugal forces did not "stick" the slime to the periphery. Not so with the tubes. So next time you motivate your ultra low weight mtb wheel set by saying that for the "stop and go" effect of mtb-ing you need lighter wheels, keep the sloshing effect in mind.Don't get me wrong. If I do stage races, I will still be TUBELESS. I am only saying that tubes are not so bad for the average rider. I also hate a puncture, but tube tires are just so much easier to get off the rim, so much easier to install. And no Joe's to spill on the garage floor or to try to get it off your clothes/legs/bike when you suffer a significant puncture on your back wheel.I am aware that at least 80% of you will try to torch or stone me. O tell me about Tubeless ready tires.Maybe it is because I have to start to use Salusa 45 this year that I feel like doing the retro-thing. I will be doing the Barberton 75km mtb on tubes. Please smile when you pass the guy with the Amarula shirt while he is fixing his punctures.The final straw was when I stepped on the Joe's bottle spilling half the contents this morning. And the extra final straw was when the UST Crossmark popped over the Stans rim bead when I inflated it with the compressor to try to get it seated, thus "exploding" off the rim showering me with a fair helping of Joe's while coating the front of my car with a fine spray of latex. And this at only 4 bar.Never use tyre liners mate , rather put sealant in a tube , works well and is light, tyre liners do not allow the tyre to roll/stretch etc etc which has a negative effect on the performance of the tyre. But tubeless is still tops, when it comes to reliability, never had a flat on tubeless. R3SL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kosmonooit Posted January 10, 2011 Share I used tyre liners for at least 10 years+ no problems m8, never noticed any problems, still had the occasional flat which has not happened to me so far in a year of being tubeless. Cant remember rolling resistance coming into the debate, surely that's all about tyre type and pressure mostly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodbadugly Posted January 10, 2011 Share Never use tyre liners mate , rather put sealant in a tube , works well and is light, tyre liners do not allow the tyre to roll/stretch etc etc which has a negative effect on the performance of the tyre. But tubeless is still tops, when it comes to reliability, never had a flat on tubeless. R3SLI agree on real mtb-ing, but for training on hard pack/surfaced roads, well... tires do not need to perform. They just roll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underachiever Posted January 11, 2011 Share Agree, train on liners and tubes. Been doing it for years. I use the wire bead tyres though, which adds weight, so it makes my training harder. The combo of wire bead tyres, liners and slime tubes at around 2.4 bar do feel less supple that tubeless at the same pressure. Not sure what causes it, sidewall difference? Oi, planning Barberton with tubes, mind you that is what I did in 2008 - no issues when I ran at 2 Bar, maybe I was just lucky? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreZA Posted January 11, 2011 Share You all say you never had punctures. How do you know that. Maybe the sealant is doing it's job and all the holes are sealed. The best term would be "never had a flat". I've had plenty of punctures with my tubed wheels but never a flat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuyP Posted January 11, 2011 Share Yep, don't worry about being torched, other peoples opinions, and all that cr@p! If it works for you it works! BTW it works for me too! Welcome (back) to the dark side! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelI65 Posted January 11, 2011 Share You all say you never had punctures. How do you know that. Maybe the sealant is doing it's job and all the holes are sealed. The best term would be "never had a flat". I've had plenty of punctures with my tubed wheels but never a flat.I know because I check the tubes once a week. It doesn't take long to remove the tyre, check the tube and pop it back on again. I do this to make sure I've "never had a flat". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wazi_woo Posted February 14, 2011 Share What about Mr Tuffy ultralite liners? 65grams for a pair. What with these and a good light pair of tube tyres will the rolling resistance not be less than thick wall ust with slime? Check out at http://www.mrtuffy.com/ultralites.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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