Need some help on spokes

[Man with no name]

 

Ek wonner wie is die vlieg wat Bornan van praat....... kan enige van julle dalk raai!!!!!!......mmmmmmm!!!!!!

 

 

en ek wonder of mike reggekom het met sy post op bladsy 1

 

oh....oops.... was this actually about someone who wanted advice? What happens if you put two consultants in a room?

[Ox_Wagon]

BigH, it is either you or me or maybe both us? Who cares <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

ManWithnoName,  do we get any clue who your talking about? Hub name maybe? Sounds like someone I may know.

BMC, this thread has been so solidly hijack that if it was a car it would already been in <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Nigeriaon>, makes you think does?t it . We all now who is in Nigeria,on> I can see a conspiracy there. Maybe it is all a 416(?) scam.

Ox_Wagon2007-12-20 09:22:14

[Windbreaker]

 

BigH' date=' it is either you or me or maybe both us? Who cares

ManWithnoName,  do we get any clue who your talking about? Hub name maybe?

[/quote']Ox you get debated with directly - because you address the subject with intelligent input. "The fly" just makes an irritating buzzing noise, distracting from the topic. Apart from a few useless quotes I must say that I've enjoyed this debate. Thanks

 

[Ox_Wagon]

I am glad it had some entertainment value.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

[steven]

Sorry but Stephen has not vanished into a wilderness and i have seen  on the website and have noted the comments with great interest regarding spokes breaking, tensions and the like.The reality is if you dont use a spoke tensionmetre you will be lost in a huge wilderness. Sometimes spokes do break at their heads when there is too much play between the spoke and the hub flange hole and then spoke washers are used to counter the play.Had Doug Patterson come and visit me this afternoon and he confirms what i say as he is the master after all.

 

I will if i get a chance post on the Hub a detailed spreadsheet of tensions for both  Shimano and DT.

 

Happy Xmas and all the Best for 2008

 

rgds sm

 

www.coolheat.co.za

 

[Windbreaker]

Well Steven, I hope that we get more facts from you that help us out of the huge wilderness. I also attended a talk by Brad Hunter from Easton and I would rate him as being quite a knowledgeable dude. I also appreciate the explanation by JB as to the flaws in a tensionmeter i.e. that it uses a measurement of deflection as the basis for the calculation of the tension and the effects of friction must be considerable. For all the reasons that he describes I believe that they are probably too imprecise for the intended application. I would guess that an electronic instrument based on the measurement of the frequency of the tone created by a "pluck" would be far more accurate albeit that it would be a relative measurement. I suppose that it is possibly why this is the method used for tuning stringed musical instruments rather than a deflection measurement of some sort?

 

Look forward to your spreadsheet and Doug Pattersons input, hopefully before Xmas

 

[Johan Bornman]

Sorry but Stephen has not vanished into a wilderness and i have seen  on the website and have noted the comments with great interest regarding spokes breaking' date=' tensions and the like.The reality is if you dont use a spoke tensionmetre you will be lost in a huge wilderness. Sometimes spokes do break at their heads when there is too much play between the spoke and the hub flange hole and then spoke washers are used to counter the play.Had Doug Patterson come and visit me this afternoon and he confirms what i say as he is the master after all.

 

I will if i get a chance post on the Hub a detailed spreadsheet of tensions for both  Shimano and DT.

 

Happy Xmas and all the Best for 2008

 

rgds sm

 

www.coolheat.co.za

 

[/quote']

Aha! the man had a Garmin. He found his way back, albeit with the same story.

 

I note that you now no longer promise us the recommended Mavic tensions as you did earlier on. I am also not holding my breath as to this spreadsheet of tensions. My guess is that it is a range of recommended tensions for factory-built wheels. The emphasis on range.

 

There will of course be no recommendations for loose hubs and rims.

 

I also see that you stick to your old washer story. I've posted a picture from your book but you and Doug X have been tacit on that point other than to claim that it works and therefore we should accept it. I don't even see it on DT Swiss' wheels, why should consumers use it?

 

You say that sometimes spokes break at the heads. Yes you're right and it is mostly related to faulty DT Swiss spokes produced up to six years ago but are sill in the supply chain. I'm referring to DT Swiss' folly with spokes with too long elbows - the event that created the sudden promotion of washers to make up for the oversized elbows? Now that the spokes are back to their normal size again, you guys still beat the washer drum.

 

I'm glad to hear master Doug confirms it all. Regards to him too. 

 

Steve, if you want to play on the tech forum you can't just pop in, leave a bomb and then promise that the cavalry will come and sort things out. Several of us are waiting quite eagerly for your promised explanation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Johan Bornman2007-12-20 22:54:29

[Minion]

 

I'm back. I did some thinking on my bike this evening (great place for ideas) and came up with some theoretical models for the wheel. I'll try post them later after dinner.

 

I've just popped in to say that you should not really put too much significance into my pretty picture. You are falling into the most dangerous of FEA traps: drawing conclusions from a model about which you have no info apart from the picture.

 

Just to give some more details:

The rim is 622mm diameter, the spokes 1.8mm. All are steel

The spokes are constrained to have zero displacements, but free rotation at the hub.

They are rigidly connected to the rim.

There is no pretension applied.

A 100N force is applied to the rim between the bottom three spokes.

You do not know the constraints of the solver: it does not model buckling.

 

Why should you be especially weary of the model?

I have done no theoretical calculations to check my results.

You do not know what the contour colours show (I can't remember if it's stress or displacement).

There is no scale to the contours

You do not know what the deflection exaggeration is (I think it's around 2500x actual deflection)

 

Without knowing this info, the picture is complete BS for anything other than a wallpaper.

 

Edman2007-12-20 12:01:40

[greatwhite]

Sorry but Stephen has not vanished into a wilderness and i have seen  on the website and have noted the comments with great interest regarding spokes breaking' date=' tensions and the like.The reality is if you dont use a spoke tensionmetre you will be lost in a huge wilderness. Sometimes spokes do break at their heads when there is too much play between the spoke and the hub flange hole and then spoke washers are used to counter the play.Had Doug Patterson come and visit me this afternoon and he confirms what i say as he is the master after all.

 

I will if i get a chance post on the Hub a detailed spreadsheet of tensions for both  Shimano and DT.

 

Happy Xmas and all the Best for 2008

 

rgds sm

 

www.coolheat.co.za

 

[/quote']

 

Looking forward to the spreadsheet. If you have stuff for mavic too, that would be great.

 

Did 'mbaymike' get hold of you (or vice versa) and get his problems resolved?

 

[straatvark]

Sometimes spokes do break at their heads when there is too much play between the spoke and the hub flange hole and then spoke washers are used to counter the play.

 

I'm learning here (to understand why the wheels that my LBS true/build don?t last), so I got to ask this:<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

 

Why would/should my LBS shop fit spokes that have play in the first place? The washers might be only a fix for something that was done wrong in first place. Shouldn?t there be standard dimensions/tolerances that should be adhered to?

 

Should I accept the practice as "standard" or can I go back to my LBS and tell them to fix when I spot that they used washers on my wheel. (Currently my LBS don?t use washers but their wheels still don?t last)

[Mudsimus]

Funny story....we had tandem wheel problems, breaking spokes everytime we ride. Had the wheels rebuild by the same guy that build the first time, using the original spokes. But this time we also used the infamous DT washers. Two years down the line we did not break one spoke or trued the wheels once.

[straatvark]

 Well part of my problems is tandem wheels

 

Maybe i must tell my LBS to use incorrect size spokes and add washers

[IanJ]

Sometimes spokes do break at their heads when there is too much play between the spoke and the hub flange hole and then spoke washers are used to counter the play.

 

I'm learning here (to understand why the wheels that my LBS true/build don?t last), so I got to ask this:<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

 

Why would/should my LBS shop fit spokes that have play in the first place? The washers might be only a fix for something that was done wrong in first place. Shouldn?t there be standard dimensions/tolerances that should be adhered to?

 

Should I accept the practice as "standard" or can I go back to my LBS and tell them to fix when I spot that they used washers on my wheel. (Currently my LBS don?t use washers but their wheels still don?t last)

[/quote']

 

Quick Hijack:

 

Hi Straatvark, how are you and the missus? Planning any trips overseas next year (the Etape looks like a piece of cake).

 

Hijack off.

 

[Man with no name]

 

 

ManWithnoName' date='  do we get any clue who your talking about? Hub name maybe? Sounds like someone I may know.[/quote']

 

Christie!

 

[straatvark]

Quick Hijack:
 
Hi Straatvark' date=' how are you and the missus? Planning any trips overseas next year (the Etape looks like a piece of cake).
 
Hijack off.
 
[/quote']

The missus are fit, I'm a bit "heavy" at this stage

I had same reaction on Etape - how can they make it so much easier?

 

Cant wait for my holiday (starting tomorrow) and start training again

 

[Ox_Wagon]

Hi, my name is Ox_wagon and my LBS build up my wheels with strait gauge DT spoke and spoke WASHERS <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

 

Hi, Ox_wagoooooon.

 

Ok, with the Spoke Washer Anonymous (SWA) group session in full swing I have to add that I haven?t had any problems with the wheels again.  They previously had sapim dubble butted spokes which is as far as I know also very good spokes.

 

The impression that I got from the LBS was that the washer, being very soft, would deform and give you a better fit between underside of the spoke head and side of the hub flange that isn?t properly aligned.  Mister Bornman?s explanation about the washer being used to correct too long J-bends also makes a lot of sense.

 

 

Ox_Wagon2007-12-21 02:53:26