Caerus Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 So what are the best dual sus 29'er brands to look at for XC/Trail. Im just talking frame. 1. Niner 2. Giant3. Trek4. Santa Cruz What models? Tallboy all the way
Eldron Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 So what are the best dual sus 29'er brands to look at for XC/Trail. Im just talking frame. 1. Niner 2. Giant3. Trek4. Santa Cruz What models? Best value/performance/quality/weight option has to be the Giant XTC1. I'm collecting my new Giant frame and fox fork tomorrow I raced a Niner Air 9 for two years and loved it - bit more expensive though. I'm not sure I'll be able to sell it... In the Niner range I'd recommend the Air 9 Scandium. The Carbon is obviously nicer but thats a lot of cash to part with. Trek/Santa Cruz I'm not too familiar with...
Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 Niner RIP 9... oooooooooh! and HT: Niner Air Carbon ooooooooooOOOOoOh!
_David_ Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 I think I agree with John Stevenson view on the 26er versus 29er debate.(Editor-in-chief of Future Publishing's cycling titles) “The 29er craze is a load of fuss over not much at all. Yes, in theory, a bigger wheel rolls faster. But the difference is lost in the noise of all the other things that effect how a bike runs. The other claimed benefits are either imaginary or could be emulated on 26in bikes. For example, 29ers work for tall riders because the big wheel forces long chainstays and a long wheelbase, so weight distribution is more like that of an average rider on a 26er. Just lengthen the stays on a 26er. “The claim that 29ers have a bigger contact patch and better grip is based on a misunderstanding of physics. If you and your bike weigh 180lb and you have 30psi in your tyres, then to distribute your weight on the ground you’ll have six square inches of tyre on the ground, regardless of tyre size. Bigger wheels are said to be more stable because of their greater angular momentum. But tests have shown that angular momentum makes little difference to stability. What matters most is trail, a function of head angle and fork offset. "Diversity of choice is great, so if you love your 29er, ride it and be happy. But don’t try to say that it’s technically superior – race results and physics say otherwise.”
Cassie Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 At the very least...the 29er is not slower then 26er.... Saw a Merida 29er at CWC...had to grip the wallet very tightly else it was sold!!
Bat-ass Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 Best value/performance/quality/weight option has to be the Giant XTC1. I'm collecting my new Giant frame and fox fork tomorrow I raced a Niner Air 9 for two years and loved it - bit more expensive though. I'm not sure I'll be able to sell it... In the Niner range I'd recommend the Air 9 Scandium. The Carbon is obviously nicer but thats a lot of cash to part with. Trek/Santa Cruz I'm not too familiar with...Eldron... you gonna love the giant. i'v had mine since september last year, and i just keep smiling while i ride. i came off a 9,5kg carbon hardtail 26er, and the 29er @ 11,4kg is (non scientifically!!) faster uphill and downhill... but more importantly, is more pleasurable to ride. i know you'v had the Niner, so i dont know how different it will be? The only 29er i'v ridden is my Giant.
Eldron Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 Eldron... you gonna love the giant. i'v had mine since september last year, and i just keep smiling while i ride. i came off a 9,5kg carbon hardtail 26er, and the 29er @ 11,4kg is (non scientifically!!) faster uphill and downhill... but more importantly, is more pleasurable to ride. i know you'v had the Niner, so i dont know how different it will be? The only 29er i'v ridden is my Giant. I'm guessing my Giant will be about the same at ~11.3kg (XT 10spd gruppo, American Classic Wheelset, light(ish) finishing kit... Gotta love that 29er feeling :-) I've ridden a Giant already and prefer the "stable" front - the combo of tapered head tube, integrated down/top tube and 15mm through axle feels more precise and predictable than the Niner. The Niner does seem to soak up bumps a bit better. Coming from a road racing background I prefer stable/predictable to bump absorption. Time will tell I guess.... I also have an On One Scandal / Carbon ridig fork on order for Woorld Single Speed champs in Ireland - all in green of course
Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 Nice quiver you have, Eldron. There's a Niner Air 9 Carbon hanging in my LBS at the moment, and I just love looking at it. Those, and a Zula and the new Bulls 29" frames. Oh my lord, such bike porn! And not a road bike in sight...
Eldron Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 I think I agree with John Stevenson view on the 26er versus 29er debate.(Editor-in-chief of Future Publishing's cycling titles) “The 29er craze is a load of fuss over not much at all. Yes, in theory, a bigger wheel rolls faster. But the difference is lost in the noise of all the other things that effect how a bike runs. The other claimed benefits are either imaginary or could be emulated on 26in bikes. For example, 29ers work for tall riders because the big wheel forces long chainstays and a long wheelbase, so weight distribution is more like that of an average rider on a 26er. Just lengthen the stays on a 26er. “The claim that 29ers have a bigger contact patch and better grip is based on a misunderstanding of physics. If you and your bike weigh 180lb and you have 30psi in your tyres, then to distribute your weight on the ground you’ll have six square inches of tyre on the ground, regardless of tyre size. Bigger wheels are said to be more stable because of their greater angular momentum. But tests have shown that angular momentum makes little difference to stability. What matters most is trail, a function of head angle and fork offset. "Diversity of choice is great, so if you love your 29er, ride it and be happy. But don’t try to say that it’s technically superior – race results and physics say otherwise.” Gotta love bucket physics. Methinks John should stick to riding/publishing and not make too many scientific claims. One aspect of science will never prove which is faster - there are so many factors at play at once that simple concepts like "angular momentum" are practically useless. John is semi right though - I'm never going to know emperically if my 29er is faster. It could all be placebo effect... Am I going to move back to 26er? Hell no! Buy what you want and ride what you like.
Bat-ass Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 I'm guessing my Giant will be about the same at ~11.3kg (XT 10spd gruppo, American Classic Wheelset, light(ish) finishing kit... Gotta love that 29er feeling :-) I've ridden a Giant already and prefer the "stable" front - the combo of tapered head tube, integrated down/top tube and 15mm through axle feels more precise and predictable than the Niner. The Niner does seem to soak up bumps a bit better. Coming from a road racing background I prefer stable/predictable to bump absorption. Time will tell I guess.... I also have an On One Scandal / Carbon ridig fork on order for Woorld Single Speed champs in Ireland - all in green of course My Giants pretty similar, full XT 9sp, and i got my hands on a set of the 2011 anthem wheels (with the DT swiss rear hub). The 2010 std. wheels are solid bombs, but good fro training!! Intereastingly, i weighed the Anthems wheelset against the american classics, on the same scale back to back (both bare ie. no rotors etc.) and the Giant wheels came in at exactly 90 grams heavier than the AC's. Now with KCNC seatpost and bars, my bike is 11,1kg (medium) thats "on the road" weight (pedals, bottle cages, garmin etc.)
Eldron Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 Nice quiver you have, Eldron. There's a Niner Air 9 Carbon hanging in my LBS at the moment, and I just love looking at it. Those, and a Zula and the new Bulls 29" frames. Oh my lord, such bike porn! And not a road bike in sight... Just buy it Have you seen the Morewood Kwela 29er yet? Apparently 1,600gr and about R7,000 retail. Naaaaaaais! Don't knock road bikes - I'm almost finised building a Raleigh Carbon Team TT bike and if it goes as fast as it looks then my fellow duathletes are in trouble!!! The quiver is getting out of hand - I'm up to 2 singles speeds, 2 29ers, a muck about 26er, a road bike, 1.5 TT bikes and a dedicated trainer slut plus more spare/racing wheels than you can shake a stick at. Track bike arriving soon I just love bikes - track, road, mtb, single, geared, 26, 29er - doesn't matter - they're all sexy in their own way.
Guest agteros Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 I am not against anything 29er, in fact I will probably buy one this year, but as we all know there are pros and cons, depending on the route, rider, time of day, freshness of legs, route knowledge, phase of the moon, that little rock that was there just now but bumped of the track on your previous run, and of course Winnie Mandela's driver's last known traffic offence, This is just pure Spez Marketing crap. We all want to be as good on the bike as Dan, Christoph, Conrad and Burry, but unfortunately most of it boils down to genetics and talent, with a bit of hard work thrown in for good measure, Instant gratification, just buy our 29er and you will be faster. Clever. All PowerBalance buyers apply first. I have come to the conclusion that most of us (and that includes myself at the top of the list) are a bunch of sissies when it comes to off-road riding. Wheelsize this, tire pressure that, groupset here, fork there. It is a humbling experience to watch cyclo-cross and see what can be done on rigid bikes with skinny tires on tracks I would not even dare to venture out on the nicest of days. I repeat, we are sissies. And big ones. Nuff said, my rant is now over. Pass me the chocolate milkshake. 29er is like Blueray Disk - it better than DVD but nobody cares...except cyclists who belive they are some sort of equipment arms race (bikes as status symbols). ROFLMAO well said!
Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 Just buy it Have you seen the Morewood Kwela 29er yet? Apparently 1,600gr and about R7,000 retail. Naaaaaaais! Don't knock road bikes - I'm almost finised building a Raleigh Carbon Team TT bike and if it goes as fast as it looks then my fellow duathletes are in trouble!!! The quiver is getting out of hand - I'm up to 2 singles speeds, 2 29ers, a muck about 26er, a road bike, 1.5 TT bikes and a dedicated trainer slut plus more spare/racing wheels than you can shake a stick at. Track bike arriving soon I just love bikes - track, road, mtb, single, geared, 26, 29er - doesn't matter - they're all sexy in their own way. not knocking them... I have a full carbon Schwinn peloton at home. Okay, hasn't seen any action since the Argus last year (valve blew after inflating it for last saturday's ride) but I still dig it. Otherwise, I find I'm more of a Mountain Goat than a roadie. Always have been. And - no can do, mate - I've just bought a REBA RLT, new fully enclosed cable kit, shifters, cassette, chain and bomb-tool for the bike, plus 2 lenses and a flash for the 450d I have at home. Simon & Lance @ Epic will just have to get used to me drooling over the frames for a while longer...
Guest Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 I'll open with this:There will never be a scientific way to prove if a 29er or 26er is faster. Different terrain, different riders, differenting riding styles, different power to weight ratios, different gearing, different pdealling RPM, different weather - it all plays it part in "faster". The only semi credable way is our own personal feel. My opinion (I'm 6'2" 80kg and rely on power more than finesses on a mtb): I feel my 29er HT is the fastest bike for almost all riding with the exception of extremely tight XC courses (fater than 26 HT, 26DS and 29 DS). In 2010 given the choice I would have used a 26er HT for MTN XC races in Groenkloof and maybe PMB - George, Rietvlei and Mankele I reckon the 29er had the edge. Every marathon would be 29er terrain for me. Like I said - my opinion only. Best thing to do is get a 29er and ride it for a week if possible. 29er needs more power - you tend to "bog down" in slow corners - I also found that when I first got the bike I got stuck in big gears and had to grind to get yp to speed - it took some times to learn to gear down an extra gear or two out of croners and try to spin more. The 29er keeps momentum really well - the key it to use the extra grip to not slow down as much - to me that is where the "faster" comes in. Best case scenario for a 29er: tall rider with good power riding semi open marathin courses.Worst case scenario for a 29er: small rider that likes to spin light gears on a hectically tight, technical course. Actually, this could be proven scientifically. A quick google shows how much data the is available on the actual physics of the bicycle. Take a quick look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_dynamics Your own opinion is exactly what unscientific is. Unless there was a sizable test subject group, riding the exact same lines, and an average was derived from this. Even in this case, it would only show that one bike is faster than the other. It wouldn't say WHY. Thats up to formulas and physics, some of which is complex, but believe me, very quantifiable. If we can put a person on the moon, I can assure you it's very possible to work out the exact physics and benefits of each design. A lot of your so called proof that a 29er is better, might be from confirmation bias. Look that one up. I think I agree with John Stevenson view on the 26er versus 29er debate.(Editor-in-chief of Future Publishing's cycling titles) “The 29er craze is a load of fuss over not much at all. Yes, in theory, a bigger wheel rolls faster. But the difference is lost in the noise of all the other things that effect how a bike runs. The other claimed benefits are either imaginary or could be emulated on 26in bikes. For example, 29ers work for tall riders because the big wheel forces long chainstays and a long wheelbase, so weight distribution is more like that of an average rider on a 26er. Just lengthen the stays on a 26er. “The claim that 29ers have a bigger contact patch and better grip is based on a misunderstanding of physics. If you and your bike weigh 180lb and you have 30psi in your tyres, then to distribute your weight on the ground you’ll have six square inches of tyre on the ground, regardless of tyre size. Bigger wheels are said to be more stable because of their greater angular momentum. But tests have shown that angular momentum makes little difference to stability. What matters most is trail, a function of head angle and fork offset. "Diversity of choice is great, so if you love your 29er, ride it and be happy. But don’t try to say that it’s technically superior – race results and physics say otherwise.” Exactly what I was thinking. Newton's laws should be kept in mind when deriving benefits from the 29er. There are many constants involved. Same rider, finite amount of energy, gravity, friction etc. I'd want to see some science before I'd shell out for a new bike. Maybe the reason there is no conclusive test is that ultimately, these guys wnt to sell bikes. They, like us, have families to feed. Perhaps the science would actually reveal that the benefits (if any) are not worth the money. Each to their own though. Perhaps Powerband is fronting the 29er craze?
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