Mojoman Posted November 21, 2012 Share Yes. manslaughter with recklessness (dolus eventualis) Now take the average person who does not know law. You tell him if you make an accident and kill someone while drunk ITS MURDER and it doesnt make sense to that person. What im suggesting is that the law be made a little more clearer. Saying murder just doesnt seem to fit. And I have actually spoken to people and they see him as a murderer. They completely forget that he was drunk. So the real issue of drunken driving is forgotten and now murder is the issue. I have actually had conversations with people who think like this. Thats my issue Im not arguing that the law behind the name murder is wrong. Im saying make people understand it better instead of confusing itSo if I get pissed and go after my enemies its OK as I was drun Ill ask you what you asked me. Cant you read? You getting angry. yay.. Good for you My point of view was from a legal standpoint. You then want to throw an emotional view onto that which causes the entire topic to go out the window. I did not come here to tell anyone they are wrong. I wanted people to be a bit more open minded. A lot of people seem to go into tunnel vision mode and just say stone the f%$ker. Does not help the issue and doesn't even help the topic set by this thread. but well done to South African people for always missing the bigger picture. WELL ******* DONE I'm not going to bother talking to you anymore. Your lack of insight and overly defensive manner causes you to not see what im trying to say. I understand what you are trying to point out but that has NO bearing on the point I was trying to make.I dont think you are going to find whatever it is you are looking for here.Out of interest when last did you ride a bike on the road? fabes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabes Posted November 21, 2012 Share A cyclist was killed by a drunk driver. Most cyclists like on this forum just get angry and show their anger. My agenda is the topic of the thread. A solution to problem.. instead of not helping the topic at all in any way. Its like the slogan (if thats what its called) drinking and driving kills (something like that)Doesnt help. More and more people do it. More and more people drive without a license. If you make an accident and kill someone and you have no license its murder too i think. Doesnt stop people... So my agenda. Get people to actually think of what they are saying. Think of the actual law revolving around the issue and then maybe discuss an actual solution that will work. Cos nothing seems to work and all the law and crap just confuses the topic You not fooling me pal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojoman Posted November 21, 2012 Share A cyclist was killed by a drunk driver. Most cyclists like on this forum just get angry and show their anger. My agenda is the topic of the thread. A solution to problem.. instead of not helping the topic at all in any way. Its like the slogan (if thats what its called) drinking and driving kills (something like that)Doesnt help. More and more people do it. More and more people drive without a license. If you make an accident and kill someone and you have no license its murder too i think. Doesnt stop people... So my agenda. Get people to actually think of what they are saying. Think of the actual law revolving around the issue and then maybe discuss an actual solution that will work. Cos nothing seems to work and all the law and crap just confuses the topicAnd what do you suggest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabes Posted November 21, 2012 Share Or anybody else for that matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeutralThinking Posted November 21, 2012 Share Quoting the definition of murder from Wikipedia just shows you have no knowledge of South African law. Murder is defined differently from country to country and our definition of murder includes the concept of dolus eventualis. If you don't like the law or the definition, go get your LLB, practice for many years, write a few textbooks on criminal law, become a judge and then try to change it. Don't come to a cycling forum and try and defend someone by pretending to have knowledge of something you don't. I was in america for years. I have read up on south african law and its very similar. American law is just so much easier to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabes Posted November 21, 2012 Share Quoting the definition of murder from Wikipedia just shows you have no knowledge of South African law. Murder is defined differently from country to country and our definition of murder includes the concept of dolus eventualis.Shows you how narrow minded he actually is Patensie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickc Posted November 21, 2012 Share Fabes, guys - the Troll alert alarm on my PC has just gone off, I think this explains the dismal thinking being put forward here by Neutral thinking. The name is apt - the thinking process here is in Neutral. fabes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M L Posted November 21, 2012 Share I was in america for years. I have read up on south african law and its very similar. American law is just so much easier to understand. Well that explains a lot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sluiper Posted November 21, 2012 Share I was in america for years. I have read up on south african law and its very similar. American law is just so much easier to understand. No, wrong again. American and South African law could not be further apart. I'm not even going to go to the effort of explaining the differing roots of the legal systems. slowpoke and Patensie 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icycling Posted November 21, 2012 Share Ok I'll ask again. WHAT IS YOUR AGENDA HERE??? You from PeYou didn't join a cycling forum then come across this threadYou clearly defending him Please explain I think the agenda is their are always 2 side - Yup as a cyclist I would want to see him rot in hell - the question is is he not already? Yup punishment need to fit the crime! My brother killed a pedestrian ( guy just stepped directly in front of his car, millie seconds) back in about 1992 on the N2 in Pinelands in Cape Town which is a freeway and thus their should be no pedestrians. Then he was a student driving a very old car that could not even get to 120km/h speed limit on that road - could only do about 100km/h. My brother was 100% innocent and cannot remember the court details (don't even think my brother got a lawyer for this) - but my brother after studying left RSA and I am pretty sure part of this was due to the fact that he has taken a human life, my brother was completely innocently, but taking a human life will always be on his conscience. RSA does not control their laws like Switzerland does where he is now, if they did pedestrian would have been off this road. Ultimately laws are not been enforced and over time they been bent we probably all do this - be it just J walking! Thus thus Gov are equally to blame as this individual - but to enforce laws need to start somewhere, if this be the guy who get sentenced then let that be a loud lesson to other motorist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted November 21, 2012 Share Fabes, guys - the Troll alert alarm on my PC has just gone off, I think this explains the dismal thinking being put forward here by Neutral thinking. The name is apt - the thinking process here is in Neutral. So you are saying that this image is apt? nickc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeutralThinking Posted November 21, 2012 Share Shows you how narrow minded he actually is Narrow minded. lol im sorry but this forum is a joke. You bunch of "holier than thou" people need to wake up. A cyclist gets killed and you guys all just throw your toys out the cott AND THEN YOU WANT TO SIT BACK AND WATCH WHAT HAPPENS.. FFS WAKE UP and fabes. You are a hypocrite. Narrow minded is exactly what you are and you decide to call me that? Funny You are that type of GRAB YOUR TORCHES AND PITCH FORKES persona. Rally the troops we going to BITCH AND MOAN AND THATS ALL WE GOING TO DO. Stand up and freaking do something instead of just being the one guy who is at the front when people bitch and moan and at the back when something needs to be done. you one of those arent you? No real substance or any real positive criticism or ideas to add but you want to bash everyone else. Anyway. Most of You cyclist people are like BMW people. Annoying as F. .U. .C. .K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Posted November 21, 2012 Share Neutral ... control the language. This is a public forum and it would be appreciated if you treated it in the same manner was what one would expect in a general discussion / environment. slowpoke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickc Posted November 21, 2012 Share Narrow minded. lol im sorry but this forum is a joke. You bunch of "holier than thou" people need to wake up. A cyclist gets killed and you guys all just throw your toys out the cott AND THEN YOU WANT TO SIT BACK AND WATCH WHAT HAPPENS.. FFS WAKE UP and fabes. You are a hypocrite. Narrow minded is exactly what you are and you decide to call me that? Funny You are that type of GRAB YOUR TORCHES AND PITCH FORKES persona. Rally the troops we going to BITCH AND MOAN AND THATS ALL WE GOING TO DO. Stand up and freaking do something instead of just being the one guy who is at the front when people bitch and moan and at the back when something needs to be done. you one of those arent you? No real substance or any real positive criticism or ideas to add but you want to bash everyone else. Anyway. Most of You cyclist people are like BMW people. Annoying as F. .U. .C. .K I urge you to seek professional help. slowpoke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabes Posted November 21, 2012 Share lol Lol???So we dealing with a 10 year old troll I see Patensie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patensie Posted November 21, 2012 Share Murder is the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human, and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (such as manslaughter) Where did you get this??? Interwebs? Wikipedia!!! Looks like an American definition... Not helping much... In SA Law, Murder is defined as "the unlawful and intentional causing of the death of another human being" – Snyman Criminal Law 447. Therefore 3 tests to prove murder:Unlawfulness - easy, did Gouws have a lawful right to cause the cyclist's life - NOIntent - More difficult, see my previous post on intent.Cause - Did he do it? Let's leave it up to the Judge, Prosecutor and Defense to iron out. You said you'd like to approach this topic based on the law. The law is neutral. The law is clear. Perhaps do a bit more research before posting? slowpoke, Hairy and fabes 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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