Power based training - high heart rate

[Gunston]

I recently started with a power based training program. As per normal, the first phase is base building, so long slow type of rides/runs.

 

During the base phase, coach said it is important to keep HR within Z2 (very low HR) for the run training and in Z2 (power based, also low) for the bike.

 

What I found happening on the bike is that my HR starts out good while keeping it in the dedicated power zone but the gradually rises to almost 80 - 90% of max an hour or so into the ride and then stabalises there.

 

So my question is - if base building is done wat a low HR (zone 2 in this case), would it still be classified as base building on the bike if I keep it in power zone 2 but my heart rate rises so much during the workout?

[Spinnekop]

Low power should not see your HR spike that much! Wat watts are we talking about? What is your FTP?

[Gunston]

Z2 training is at 150w - 180w. FTP based on lactate testing and not the normal 20min all out effort is at 220w.

 

On the program provided, I also have HR values along with the power values to indicate training zones. For Z2, HR should be between 109 - 129 bpm, I end up seeing HR values between 145 - 155bpm 30 - 45 min into a sesison of keeping NP at around 175w.

 

Outcome of the lactate testing did show that I have high LT and Fatigue resistance but not much in terms of base fitness - could this explain it? And then again - would I be building base at these high HR values althoug it is at low power output?

[Robodog]

Nope slow down even more to keep your HR under 130bpm. Your body will soon adapt and you will be pushing more and more watts for the same heart rate intensity. That's what base building is all about.

[dracs]

I am also battling with the whole base fitness thing. When time is of the essance fitting in long rides at low HR are just not practical. What are the consequences of not having these base hours? I think I read somewhere it means you lose gained fitness quicker or is it in some other way limiting of your potential progress.

 

sorry for the hijack but think its still on topic...

[Minion]

What's your RPE for the ride? Does it feel like an easy L2 ride? If so, it might be that your max HR is incorrect. How was it determined?

 

There is also quite a lot of literature indication that power at LT is not necessarily the same as FTP. It's your Functional threshold power i.e. what you're able to actually achieve over one hour: you may not actually be able to sustain your LT power for the long duration, in which case your FTP will be lower.

 

Who gave you the program? What are their thoughts on this?

[Cyclewizz]

In your first post you mention that you have a coach, why don't you ask him ?

 

How old are you ?

Your age will impact your HR.

[Agteros]

Yep, normal questions: Did you estimate, or actually test your FTP, and (to a lesser degree) you HRmax? Were these tests/estimates recent?

 

Coggan training zones: http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/power-training-levels,-by-andrew-coggan.aspx

Friel training zones: http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2009/11/quick-guide-to-setting-zones.html

 

Also a bikeforums discussion on prety much this: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/366836-Heart-Rate-Zones-vs-Power-Zones

[Gunston]

Coach explained it as cardiac drift - also said that is the benefit of power based training where you can keep a constant power output regardless of what your HR does. She recons it is still considered base training.

 

So if you have cardiac drift in cycling, you will surely have it during running as well, which doesnt say much for HR based run training? or am I missing the point?

[usxorf]

Coach explained it as cardiac drift - also said that is the benefit of power based training where you can keep a constant power output regardless of what your HR does. She recons it is still considered base training.

 

So if you have cardiac drift in cycling, you will surely have it during running as well, which doesnt say much for HR based run training? or am I missing the point?

 

Use L2 running pace (km/h) instead of HR if you're concerned about drift.

Edited October 25, 2012 by yazzo

[Gunston]

Use L2 running pace (km/h) instead of HR if you're concerned about drift.

 

So if you run by pace, what about hills? Surely it takes more power running up a hill at 5min/km than running down hille at the same pace?

[Agteros]

 

So if you run by pace, what about hills? Surely it takes more power running up a hill at 5min/km than running down hille at the same pace?

Work on averages!

[SwissVan]

I recently started with a power based training program. As per normal, the first phase is base building, so long slow type of rides/runs.

 

During the base phase, coach said it is important to keep HR within Z2 (very low HR) for the run training and in Z2 (power based, also low) for the bike.

 

What I found happening on the bike is that my HR starts out good while keeping it in the dedicated power zone but the gradually rises to almost 80 - 90% of max an hour or so into the ride and then stabalises there.

 

So my question is - if base building is done wat a low HR (zone 2 in this case), would it still be classified as base building on the bike if I keep it in power zone 2 but my heart rate rises so much during the workout?

 

 

 

Z2 training is at 150w - 180w. FTP based on lactate testing and not the normal 20min all out effort is at 220w.

 

On the program provided, I also have HR values along with the power values to indicate training zones. For Z2, HR should be between 109 - 129 bpm, I end up seeing HR values between 145 - 155bpm 30 - 45 min into a sesison of keeping NP at around 175w.

 

Outcome of the lactate testing did show that I have high LT and Fatigue resistance but not much in terms of base fitness - could this explain it? And then again - would I be building base at these high HR values althoug it is at low power output?

 

 

Coach explained it as cardiac drift - also said that is the benefit of power based training where you can keep a constant power output regardless of what your HR does. She recons it is still considered base training.

 

So if you have cardiac drift in cycling, you will surely have it during running as well, which doesnt say much for HR based run training? or am I missing the point?

 

 

Your coach is right.

 

Cardiac drift over a short term can be a result of other factors (body temperature, humidity, consumption of fluids, gels, energy bars, gastric activity, dehydration, etc…you get the drift…..) but not usually due to the rate of work or effort.

 

Yes it applies to running for sure, probably more so than cycling (cooling is more effecient while cycling). If you run at 5min/km the whole time (say 60 minutes) on a flat even route your HR at 15 min will be lower than at 50 min, not because you are running faster or putting in more effort, your heart is working harder to keep your muscles / body at optimum temperature.

 

To counter this effect you could (as suggested earlier by someone) also monitor your pace and use that as a guideline combined with HR and your perceived exertion level which should be easy i.e. you could hold a conversation easily without getting out of breath.

Edited October 25, 2012 by SwissVan

[Spinnekop]

Z2 training is at 150w - 180w. FTP based on lactate testing and not the normal 20min all out effort is at 220w.

 

mmmmmm.....that gives you Z2 as 80% of your FTP wich is 'sweet spot training'.

For me that equals HR of around 70% of my max......gives me around 150 hr.....in and around...

Looking at that, "low intensity training" should not be around 80% of FTP but rather aroun 60% that will give you about 130w ?

That should sort out the HR issue being to high....

 

Nope slow down even more to keep your HR under 130bpm. Your body will soon adapt and you will be pushing more and more watts for the same heart rate intensity. That's what base building is all about.

 

Bringing your HR down as sugested by slick will be more in line with base mile training!

 

 

On the program provided, I also have HR values along with the power values to indicate training zones. For Z2, HR should be between 109 - 129 bpm, That sounds about right yes. I end up seeing HR values between 145 - 155bpm 30 - 45 min into a sesison of keeping NP at around 175w. At 80% of FTP you should not be able to keep it below 130!

 

Outcome of the lactate testing did show that I have high LT and Fatigue resistance but not much in terms of base fitness - could this explain it? And then again - would I be building base at these high HR values althoug it is at low power output?

 

To put things a bit more in perspective. I have an estimated FTP of 310. My sweet spot training will be around 250w then but that will give me an avg of 150ish HR.

If I want to go long slow easy distance at 130 HR, I have to tone the watts down to about 180-200.

 

Make any sense?

Not a trainer....just sharing my experience......

[Christie]

At steady pace, HR and power should roughly follow one another. If they dont, it may be that the hrm is not measuring correctly. If the hrm is measuring right, I suggest you go see a cardiologist to understand the implications of the wild HR on your cycling.