Fake Pina's on Gumtree

[capeofstorms]

How does this all affect the re-sale value of a "real" Pina? The owners of the "real deal" must be having nightmares

[Iwan Kemp]

I'm ignoring Crow's post because that's for cars, and a blatant bit of piracy. In the instance of bike frames, the chinese/taiwanese factories are the Go-To specialists hired by the brand names to do their dirty work. It's not as clear cut.

Yeah, it's a bit off topic but does give one a glimpse of their approach. I have no doubt that there some very knowledgeable Chinese people who are carbon experts. I do however believe that most of the bigger brands, if not all, have their own design team and resident carbon expert. Some hailing from the aerospace and F1 backgrounds. Guys and girls who are the best of the best who help with the design and engineering side of things. Product specialists. These manufacturers only turn to the East for manufacturing.

 

As far as I know no manufacturer has a design copyright. But general acceptance is that there is a difference between clear design elements and style and general shape of a bicycle, car, whatever. Some elements of it's looks are predetermined, but a specific design element that gives an object a certain look is always considered the property of Company XXX.

 

Pina's crinkle cut fork and stays is patented as part of a design and lay-up process to illuminate NVH (noise, vibration, harshness) yet yield a stiff but light (never heard of a competitively light Pina in my life!) frame.

 

Carbon as a product does not belong to one company. Lay-up, manufacturing, bonding and weave is however a tightly guarded secret as that's where the big guys have the biggest gains and where MOST R&D money gets spend. Of course these factories have access to it as they manufacture them.

 

But it would be wrong to assume all factories in the East copy and steal intellectual property. Easy to copy a look, not so easy to make it work. When the big guys design form follows function (to a degree). When the east copies function follows form as it's vital to get a recognized look FIRST in order to sell to a market already established and to people who care enough to ride a frame that LOOKS like, in this case, a Pinarello.

 

I'm with Yumeya on the fugly bit and will add overweight and over-prized to the equation so couldn't be bothered. Have spoken to several industry insiders who have frames manufactured in the East who said they wouldn't touch some of these blank frames with another man's hand - for me it's good enough to know that I simply don't know who to trust and who not.

 

Plus I'm willing to pay a couple of bucks extra to support a company putting themselves out there to R&D a bike from the ground up. Guys who spend hours and hours to get it just right. Guys who sacrifice time with the family and on the bike to put a smile on my face. I, me, myself consider it an insult to then go and buy a cheap copy just to say I ride a XXX.

 

BUT. I can also understand that it's different for lots of people and that I have probably typed too much already. I also understand that not everybody has the same amount of money around to spend. Live and let live I say.

[livingiry]

Lol, bunch of hipocrates, most things come out of china. 80 percent of you guys buy fake dvd's , download mp3's and movies,etc. All fake if you want to use the term, what about the poor artists. original price is 80k + which is rediculous by any standard. maybe 5% of the guys on this hub can afford to buy the real deal as they put it.

 

Pointless debating the subject. I have bought italian suits in Woodstock and they where contracted to make for italian company, doesnt make it a fake, just an overrun. The same suit costed R5000 in waterfront and R600 at the factory, LOL......

[Java001]

did pina put up a general notice and say watch out for these fake frames coming out of china? I ask because I'm curious as to where the line is on this situation. The chinese are obviously pushing out replicas and selling it online to all and sundry: what then is the real difference between teh frames besides the coloring and stickers, which means stuffall in my mind tbh.

 

Are these frames actually patented? AFAIK, if there are fancypants processes involved, those companies tend to do things in house. Trek comes to mind.

 

I'm ignoring Crow's post because that's for cars, and a blatant bit of piracy. In the instance of bike frames, the chinese/taiwanese factories are the Go-To specialists hired by the brand names to do their dirty work. It's not as clear cut.

 

We can get carried away with brand names ( being brand sluts as indicated by Azonic), perceived quality, patents e.t.c., but it is all about only one thing - MONEY that the bicycle manufacturers make for their owners or shareholders.

They like all Western manufacturers, knew EXACTLY about the copy/fake problem and all other risks of dealing with the East and specifically China, long before they started doing business there, so pity for them from us as consumers, is perhaps somewhat misplaced. It is all factored into their pricing structure, so every year when you buy that new Pinarello, part of the price effectively "subsidizes" a fake. Bitter much?

A major plus is the extremely low cost of production which gives the manufacturers massive profit margins, when compared to if they had manufactured in their countries of origin. ( remember that a Chinarello Dogpoo retailing at R 4K still gives Chinarello a nice profit, so do we actually comprehend how little it costs to make a carbon frame in China, irrespective of whether it is a Pinarello or Chinarello ?)

The lost sales as result of the customer's ability to choose to buy copies/fakes, have resulted in increases to their marketing budgets and they now spend more than before to convince their target market that an original must be bought at inflated prices - just considering some Hubber responses and loyalty/ protection of the brand makes one realise how effective their marketing spend has been !

Ultimately marketing cost is easily absorbed into the massive profit margins and annual price increases.

[ThaStig]

How does this all affect the re-sale value of a "real" Pina? The owners of the "real deal" must be having nightmares

A "Real" Pina owner never resells; he just adds to the collection in his special air-locked, dust-free, air-conditioned bike-room.

[mavrick]

I think it looks very cool without any branding

 

A nice matt black finish with nothing else!

 

Call it "STEALTH LTD EDITION " Dont 4get to patent !

[Octavian]

I think it's a matter of principal... If you happy to do things on the cheap with no conscience, then go for it...

[Dr Snuggles]

 

The lost sales as result of the customer's ability to choose to buy copies/fakes, have resulted in increases to their marketing budgets and they now spend more than before to convince their target market that an original must be bought at inflated prices - just considering some Hubber responses and loyalty/ protection of the brand makes one realise how effective their marketing spend has been !

Ultimately marketing cost is easily absorbed into the massive profit margins and annual price increases.

 

agreed, but the irony in that part of your post is that they persist with the chinese/taiwanese manufacturers. Reminds me of those that refuse to buy from the factory shops because they prefer the 'royal treatment + nice bag' they get when they go full retail. and they say you can't buy class *giggles*

[mavrick]

We can get carried away with brand names ( being brand sluts as indicated by Azonic), perceived quality, patents e.t.c., but it is all about only one thing - MONEY that the bicycle manufacturers make for their owners or shareholders.

They like all Western manufacturers, knew EXACTLY about the copy/fake problem and all other risks of dealing with the East and specifically China, long before they started doing business there, so pity for them from us as consumers, is perhaps somewhat misplaced. It is all factored into their pricing structure, so every year when you buy that new Pinarello, part of the price effectively "subsidizes" a fake. Bitter much?

A major plus is the extremely low cost of production which gives the manufacturers massive profit margins, when compared to if they had manufactured in their countries of origin. ( remember that a Chinarello Dogpoo retailing at R 4K still gives Chinarello a nice profit, so do we actually comprehend how little it costs to make a carbon frame in China, irrespective of whether it is a Pinarello or Chinarello ?)

The lost sales as result of the customer's ability to choose to buy copies/fakes, have resulted in increases to their marketing budgets and they now spend more than before to convince their target market that an original must be bought at inflated prices - just considering some Hubber responses and loyalty/ protection of the brand makes one realise how effective their marketing spend has been !

Ultimately marketing cost is easily absorbed into the massive profit margins and annual price increases.

 

Pina wont complain as the replicas advertise the name at no cost !!!

[ThaStig]

I see that tjop is at it again, selling "New Bora 50mm Clinchers" for 12k ZAR.

Edited December 28, 2012 by ThaStig

[andydude]

Carbon bikes are hardly one brands technology, imagine every steel bike manufacturer getting up in arms cos the other brands bike looks the same? This is a silly debate, bottom line is that isn't a Pina. If you want it, buy it, if you don't, DON'T.

 

I'm not talking about the material used, although I guess you can also patent a certain carbon and/or composite, but if you look at Pina's frame, surely that is patented? And you can't use patented designs for your own products, because that would be stealing, even if you don't put on stickers.

 

I'm just trying to understand. I guess the same would apply to cars, where basically it's metal on the outside, but the forms and designs are patented.

[Pieterg]

Where can I get a no name "Cervelo S5"frame.If anybody going to import pleasE drop me a pm

[andydude]

http://www.pinarello.../about_fake.php

 

The Pinarello Group would like to communicate to all of its customers that preventive measures and legal action have been undertaken in order to protect our trademarks, patents and goods worldwide. This move is to prevent the increasing instances of counterfeiting and the sale of non-original or fake products. Intellectual property is fundamental for our group and is guaranteed through the registration and maintenance of trademarks and patents around the world.

The Pinarello Group, from today, shall devote considerable time & effort in order to monitor the trafficking of counterfeit goods via the internet. The aim is to combat the growing phenomenon of fake products in the marketplace. At the same time, we shall also be sending a strong message to offenders by having their counterfeit Pinarello products removed from popular online auction and general websites.

We wish to inform our customers that all our products are sold exclusively via our official Pinarello Dealers and Points; you can find your closest dealer by visiting our official website www.pinarello.com . Our resellers are at your complete disposal and shall provide you with all the information required prior to the purchase of our products/s. We remind that our warranty and the after-sale services are only available upon the purchase of our genuine & original products.

Edited December 28, 2012 by andydude

[Dr Snuggles]

Where can I get a no name "Cervelo S5"frame.If anybody going to import pleasE drop me a pm

 

Velobuild

[Dr Snuggles]

http://www.pinarello.../about_fake.php

 

The Pinarello Group would like to communicate to all of its customers that preventive measures and legal action have been undertaken in order to protect our trademarks, patents and goods worldwide. This move is to prevent the increasing instances of counterfeiting and the sale of non-original or fake products. Intellectual property is fundamental for our group and is guaranteed through the registration and maintenance of trademarks and patents around the world.

The Pinarello Group, from today, shall devote considerable time & effort in order to monitor the trafficking of counterfeit goods via the internet. The aim is to combat the growing phenomenon of fake products in the marketplace. At the same time, we shall also be sending a strong message to offenders by having their counterfeit Pinarello products removed from popular online auction and general websites.

We wish to inform our customers that all our products are sold exclusively via our official Pinarello Dealers and Points; you can find your closest dealer by visiting our official website www.pinarello.com . Our resellers are at your complete disposal and shall provide you with all the information required prior to the purchase of our products/s. We remind that our warranty and the after-sale services are only available upon the purchase of our genuine & original products.

 

window dressing at best, because if you know exactly where the culprits are, you go in hard and nuke the whole operation. But since they know who their bosses really are, they play nice. Now whois worse: Pina or the chinese?

[chris_w_65]

I bought all my Porsche parts from a company in the USA, they source direct from Porsche's suppliers and I paid 30% of the SA price. They are 100% original but not in Porsche packaging.

 

Believe it or not the bonnet badge is made in... You guessed it, China. The USA company shipped me a badge and it was not identical to my 30 year old original so the guy in the USA suggested I go to Porsche SA and ask if I can see a badge. They pulled one out of spares. The only differences between the badge I bought and the "original" Porsche one where that the original came in a Porsche box and to my disbelief had a "made in China" sticker on the bag inside the box!!!

 

Getting back to bicycles, I believe the "blanks" are cheap copies. There is no way the company that has the contract to build top name brands will sell their product out the back door.

 

As far as I know the top brands source their carbon components from Taiwan, they seem to be the experts in that.

 

Ever ridden a Chinese scooter or motorbike? Good luck. The material (aluminium) quality is so poor that you can not torque any bolts to the correct spec, not even the spark plug. The threads just pull straight out.

I am not saying the Chinese cannot build a decent motorcycle given the correct budjet but the market wants cheap goods and that is what they get.