LCHF - Low Carb High Fat Diet Ver 2

[htone]

Below some data on a training and LCHF eating I experienced as of late:::

• BG: tested numerous times before/after training and eating. Even with meals the range is 3,7-4,8 mmol/L. Even after a loooong ride
  

• In this 13 weeks I did 3 intensity sessions. All were races:: BG in above mentioned range, BUT my ave HR for the races were 90% of max. I ride on water only. Rewind 5 months and it was 82% WHY?
  

 

I also use urine sticks that measure a spectrum of things: As of late blood ph is low, protein in urine, no glucose, ketones almost nothing(hopefully I used everything in training). Sometimes even blood indicated, but that is a false indication according to some reading I have done on that.

 

Some of the posts of late spoke about MCT oil use for boosting threshold riding. I shall try it also, do not know how?

 

Why is my race HR average gone up?

Threshold riding is not up to speed --

 

The info on thread lately made me think.. any comments welcome ...

 

Edited your quoted post above to address some of your questions. Most of what I am saying here is speculation on my part, as I have had similar "issues". This is going to get long, so bear with me.

 

Just on your BG numbers -those are brilliant and based on that alone I would speculate that you are not carb sensitive / insulin resistant at all. And this bears out the huge difference we see in individuals. Roux1, if you just look at what HelpMyTrap reported his own BG to be, sometimes going over 6 and dipping low on occasion, I would venture a guess that HMT is much more sensitive to carbs than you are. On the other end of the scale is me

 

On the stix - they are merely an indication, so what you want to avoid is e.g. prolonged blood in urine or protein in urine. Gettting blood or protein readings when you are training hard is "normal". I get that a lot.

 

So let me give you my background to my own HR story again and then let's see where the lines cross and we have similarities ?

 

I went from doing social MTB riding at about 5 hours per week to a mix of road and MTB (but much more road) at 13 - 16 hours per week. This was a sudden step-up and I did not ease myself into it, but at that stage I would say I was well adapted to LCHF. In the process I took my eye off my protein intake and dropped my protein intake well below 0.8g/kg. I ended up with an increased HR during training (but I did not feel any worse for it) and could comfortably ride at 185 bpm, keep in mind that I am 50 so my theoretical maxHR should be 170. That part did not bother me much, but what bothered me was that my RestingHR crept up from about 60 to eventually sitting at around 104. That's when I started to panic just a little.

 

I reported on here about a visit to an infamously well-known cardiologist who said that I had overtrained and that my protein intake was too low. He prescribed 3 months' of training not over 120bpm AVE and supplementing with additional protein. I did that. On completion of the 3 month period (one of those months I did no training whatsoever) I started riding again, only to notice that my maxHR would still comfortably exceed my theoretical maxHR, so what I did is I kept limiting myself to not exceed about 172bpm, but I still tried to average my HR around 120 - 130 (helluva difficult as I usually hit 120 one block from my house).

 

Not happy with what I was seeing, I went to two other cardiologists, the last one is a well know competitive cyclist here in the Northern Suburbs. Both gave me a complete work-over, from doing the Doppler sonar scan to having me run on the treadmill to my maxHR. Both had the same surprising conclusion: There is NOTHING wrong with my heart medically, physically or electrically (and they focused on the electrical part quite a bit as that is usually where they can see if your heart becomes arrhythmic under stress). I have a higher maxHR than other people my age and that is all they could conclude.

 

The last Cardiologist (the cyclist) said that I should follow a Friel-type training plan, working to get my base re-established for about 6 weeks and then start building from there. BUT... he framed one thing for me beautifully. He said that in spite of all the fancy test equipment and monitors that they had me connected to, the body's own monitoring system is still the best. "Listen to your body. If there is ANYTHING that concerns you, LISTEN to THAT. If there is nothing that worries you, then keep going". Those were his words almost verbatim. And that was the part that stuck in my head and that is what I am doing now BEFORE I even look at my heart rate monitor.

 

The other thing that happened after the rest period is that my RestingHR has started coming down. It is now just above 70, but it is still tracking down. So, just to recap, after a 3 month rest period (low training load) and with added protein supplementation, my RestingHR is coming down but I can still push my maxHR well into the 180's without feeling any the worse for wear. Where does this leave me and what are my conclusions ???

 

The RestingHR was my "warning indicator" - that went high because my heart (100% muscle) was being over-stressed and I did not consume enough protein to facilitate muscle repair. If your RestingHR or your RecoveryHR (by how much your HR recovers in the 1 - 2 mins after exercise) is not what it should be, you are probably either overtraining or running too low on protein.

 

But this left the maxHR mystery unsolved. Why would my heart beat so fast, yet I felt fine ? I must tell you that I replayed many of my training rides in my head and what I realised is that most of my "panic" feelings during the rides was because my Garmin was beeping when I went over my maxHR setting, so it was a conditioned response rather than a physical one. So then I started my research into this and I am far from complete, but what I have found bears what I have been thinking is happening:

• Ketones are the preferred fuel for your brain and heart
  
• Ketones have a mildly adrenergic effect (it acts like adrenalin) and may cause an increase in HR
  
• A great many people living in or near a dietary state of ketosis are reporting an increase in HR during any type of physical activity
  
• I have seen a number of tweets directed at e.g. Prof Noakes about exactly this - but the answer always seems to be that there is not enough data yet to come to a conclusion
  
• There are theories that in our "natural state" as e.g. Paleo hunters, our HR would be elevated far above that of our modern day selves. We would be in a constant state of being alert to prey and predator and we would have been a lot more physically active than what we are now.
  
• Granted, the lifespan of early man was a lot shorter than that of modern man, but I doubt if the all-cause mortality was due to heart failure !
  
• I have been in ketosis for some months and what I am seeing on the high scale of maxHR is seen by many others on similar eating plans.
  
• I have to keep in mind that my HR range is unique to me. I am not bound to a theoretical scale just like I don't have the same response to carbs as other people will have.
  

 

I am thus left to conclude (with insufficient data and research) that my HR is higher because of my low-carb lifestyle. I am not worrying about it anymore as it has had no negative effects on me, yet I remain in tune with my body for exactly that reason.

 

Perhaps somewhere in this long tale there is something that rings a familiar bell ?

[htone]

#&$^%*%

 

Update: 19 days....no weight loss, just saw on the tdf website that I (at 1.53m short) weigh the same as the cyclist Quintana! Very depressing me thinks! I keep a food diary, I changed my eating habits from 5-6 small meals (was hungry all the time) to 3 LCHF meals (maybe not HF enough...?), I eat my salad when everyone have hamburgers and chips….

 

On the up side, now I’m only eating when I'm hungry which feels great, not that obsessive about food anymore. I tried fasting last weekend on the day that I didn’t cycle, but only managed to skip breakfast and lunch though .

 

So, decided not to enter Die Burger MTB 60km race on 3 August seeing that I feel so crap on the bike lately, can't keep up with anyone, there is just nothing in my legs (although a very low HR, but the legs can’t even raise my HR!). I even asked my personal trainer to do only one gym session a week instead of 2 so that I can get more time on the bike (I thought maybe it is the weight training that makes my legs feel so heavy.)

 

Sunday I start with DC training with the team, I’m afraid I will be exiled if they see how slow I’m on the bike! But luckily it won’t be more than a 3 hour ride and it won’t be at a fast past.

 

So usual routine for long rides would have been: futurelife or oats before the ride, a jungle oat bar, banana and some enerjellies during, with one bottle of water and one with 32GI.

New routine: bacon and eggs before, water and a few almonds during, and maybe a maxilean low carb bar if I really get hungry.

 

Should I try to continue with the new routine on Sunday??

 

Marge, well done. These are very early days for you - remember that you will probably only start feeling your old self on the bike at about 8 weeks into this, so just be patient, be aware of what is going on but keep going, you will never look back.

 

Take some carb sources with you on Sunday, and perhaps even start fuelling fairly early into the ride. Your body is in a very "confused" state right now and it does not readily know how to switch between burning fat and carbs yet. I would not have normally recommended that anybody does a 3 hour group ride so soon into LCHF, but if you take fuel along you SHOULD be OK. Just be prepared and tell people what may happen - when that bonk comes, it sometimes comes early and it hits you hard. You should ideally have been able to give yourself at least another month to adapt...

[tombeej]

The definition of insanity is...

 

I posted some time back – in the old thread – how my performance on the bike only took a leap forward once I started adding carbs back into my diet.

 

This was after about 6 months into the process. I was feeling great, burning off body fat nicely, no energy slumps during the day, etc., but too often very flat on the bike – especially on the second day of two hard days in a row.

 

I’ve read the same thing over and over again in Paleo/LCHF threads on the web. It’s a common experience among many people who start this lifestyle: Feeling really good a few months in, but lacking power… add back carbs, power returns.

 

I’ve posted links to articles from Mark Sisson (Primal/Paleo) and Peter Attia (strict LCHF) where they all essentially say the same thing re. carbs. And that is that each of us lie somewhere along a carb continuum. Some of us thrive on very low carbs while others thrive further up the carb continuum with a higher daily intake.

 

For me, I found my sweet spot via trial and error, no science/measurements at all. All I did was start eating more fruit and veg until I reached a point where the carb monster started to wake up. At that point I had to back up a bit until I found my balance. I love my fruit. I actually eat quite a lot of it. All low carb GI (grapefruit, lemons, plums, apples, berries). I’ve worked out how much fruit I can eat a day before I wake up the monster. The same diet would send htone’s body into a tailspin.

 

I thrive quite a bit higher up the carb continuum than, say, htone would. His body clearly responds most positively when he goes really, really low. My body did not thrive at those low levels. I did try. I really do need more carbs; around 80 - 100g daily is my sweet spot.

 

I have lots of energy with exercise now. No more weak, aching quads early in a ride when I should be fresh and flying.

 

So some of you seem to have arrived at that point where I ended up (and many others before me): i.e. where you might be too far below your carb sweet spot on the continuum. Maybe it’s time you start to add back some good quality carbs bit by bit and see how that affects you.

 

What I’m trying to say is, don’t blindly follow the format that someone is saying works for them. It's awesome to read each other's experiences and their own n = 1 experiments on this thread. But you still have to work out for yourself what works for you. If you are feeling weak on the bike, especially after doing this for a while, stop banging your head against the wall and start making some changes. If you are strangely craving citrus fruit all the time, maybe your body is telling you something. Listen to it! To paraphrase a well known quote, “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result.”

Edited July 19, 2013 by tombeej

[Helpmytrap]

I would not have normally recommended that anybody does a 3 hour group ride so soon into LCHF, but if you take fuel along you SHOULD be OK. Just be prepared and tell people what may happen - when that bonk comes, it sometimes comes early and it hits you hard. You should ideally have been able to give yourself at least another month to adapt...

And there I did a 3h15 race in my first week and then a 17h30 training week in week 3 with one of the rides being 4h20.

From what I have read is that in the beginning stages of Paleo and LCHF dieting, one should do no more than a 3hr ride and for obvious reasons must be below threshold.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Helpmytrap

[htone]

What I’m trying to say is, don’t blindly follow the format that someone is saying works for them. It's awesome to read each other's experiences and their own n = 1 experiments on this thread. But you still have to work out for yourself what works for you. If you are feeling weak on the bike, especially after doing this for a while, stop banging your head against the wall and start making some changes. If you are strangely craving citrus fruit all the time, maybe your body is telling you something. Listen to it! To paraphrase a well known quote, “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result.”

 

Yes, how I miss that old thread that had all this info sometimes

 

I agree 100% tombeej, the only thing I would add is the following:

 

Do not make yourself used to adding carbs from the start, that defeats the purpose. I think it is almost a "must" that you need to go as low-carb as possible for at least say 4 - 8 weeks, to get your body to detox and to start adapting. I am really worried (and I always use myself as the sounding board) to just say "It's OK to add carbs back". If I heard that early on in my LCHF journey, my carb monster would have won the battle hands down.

 

See where that "sweet spot" is for you. See if you can train at various intensity levels and for increasing duration without carbs at all. Once you are happy that you can e.g. ride a fairly hard 3 hour ride without the need for carbs, then start pushing the envelope with harder, longer rides, and then add back carbs as needed. You will very soon learn to read your body's signals (and that's where my "surfing the bonk" analogy comes from) - I can now very clearly tell whether I am just going through a mini-dip in energy or whether I am becoming depleted of energy. You then have two options - you either lower the intensity to below your VO2Max threshold and ride comfortably in the fat burning zone, or you keep going at full speed but you fuel with a good quality supplement. If you prefer carrying real food, this is where I would eat a banana rather than a potato as the energy release will be a lot quicker.

 

We can have this discussion about carb absorption on another day, but the essence is that the commercial carb/fuel preparations cross the stomach barrier A LOT quicker than real food that still has to digest, so the immediacy of your energy need will determine that refeeding strategy to a large extent.

[Snytjie]

To my understanding that would mean that I'm not yet in ketosis because it would seem as though my body is producing glycogen to fuel my muscles?

I have modified things slightly after reading Paleo for Endurance Athletes by Friel and Courdain where they recon fat burns in a carb fire, i.e. you still need some carbs and more importantly you need full glycogen stores pre-race. !

RDB, I am beginning to lean towards high-impact, good quality carbs during a race, rather than something like potatoes which may or may not have the desired effect (as this varies hugely between individuals). If you are racing and you are serious about it, then hit your carbs stores hard with a quality supplement like JCZA described - the more I am reading guys like Friel, the more this is beginning to make sense..

 

Your body will always need carbs as well as fat during exercise. This advice by JCZA and htone reflects not only what Friel et al say as, but also people like Peter Attia who is a LCHF fanatic (in the positive sense of the word). Attia himself takes carbs during prolonged/HIT in the form of superstarch. Because your body stores so much more energy in the form of fat than glucose, the trick is to teach it to burn as much fat as possible. But glucose will still be used.

 

Your body will first source the needed glucose from muscle and liver glycogen which has about 1500 kcal available. When this gets low/depleted, the body needs to get it from either digestion or glyconeogenesis (the liver producing glucose from fat and protein).

 

When considering endurance sport, this is generally where viewpoints of LCHF start to differ. It is apperantly possible to train your body to produce enough glucose through glyconeogenesis to do considerable amounts of endurance activity (e.g. many people who do long sessions/races on water only). Other, like JCZA and myself, feel it is easier/better to rather digest the needed carbs. In my opinion, glyconeogenesis is an emergency response of the body. Endurance sport already stresses the body significantly, so I do not feel comfortable with adding to that stress by calling on emergency responses. I don't argue for either one over the other, though. Some people have particular reasons for shying away from carbs even during exercise. Others do not need to take such critical steps. I have a strict LCHF diet around exercise, but during 3 hour+ sessions and races digest 300-350 kcal of carbs form both solid foods (bananas, marmite sandwich) and gels/chews.

 

I did a RER and VOmax test a week ago, and am waiting anxiously for the results. The RER will show the exact proportion of fat and glucose burning my body does at various HR. That way you can emperically measure how much carbs you need at a given HR/effort/pace and prevent carb overload.

[Snytjie]

The definition of insanity is...

 

I posted some time back – in the old thread – how my performance on the bike only took a leap forward once I started adding carbs back into my diet.

 

This was after about 6 months into the process. I was feeling great, burning off body fat nicely, no energy slumps during the day, etc., but too often very flat on the bike – especially on the second day of two hard days in a row.

 

I’ve read the same thing over and over again in Paleo/LCHF threads on the web. It’s a common experience among many people who start this lifestyle: Feeling really good a few months in, but lacking power… add back carbs, power returns.

 

I’ve posted links to articles from Mark Sisson (Primal/Paleo) and Peter Attia (strict LCHF) where they all essentially say the same thing re. carbs. And that is that each of us lie somewhere along a carb continuum. Some of us thrive on very low carbs while others thrive further up the carb continuum with a higher daily intake.

 

For me, I found my sweet spot via trial and error, no science/measurements at all. All I did was start eating more fruit and veg until I reached a point where the carb monster started to wake up. At that point I had to back up a bit until I found my balance. I love my fruit. I actually eat quite a lot of it. All low carb GI (grapefruit, lemons, plums, apples, berries). I’ve worked out how much fruit I can eat a day before I wake up the monster. The same diet would send htone’s body into a tailspin.

 

I thrive quite a bit higher up the carb continuum than, say, htone would. His body clearly responds most positively when he goes really, really low. My body did not thrive at those low levels. I did try. I really do need more carbs; around 80 - 100g daily is my sweet spot.

 

I have lots of energy with exercise now. No more weak, aching quads early in a ride when I should be fresh and flying.

 

So some of you seem to have arrived at that point where I ended up (and many others before me): i.e. where you might be too far below your carb sweet spot on the continuum. Maybe it’s time you start to add back some good quality carbs bit by bit and see how that affects you.

 

What I’m trying to say is, don’t blindly follow the format that someone is saying works for them. It's awesome to read each other's experiences and their own n = 1 experiments on this thread. But you still have to work out for yourself what works for you. If you are feeling weak on the bike, especially after doing this for a while, stop banging your head against the wall and start making some changes. If you are strangely craving citrus fruit all the time, maybe your body is telling you something. Listen to it! To paraphrase a well known quote, “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result.”

 

Snap!

[tombeej]

Do not make yourself used to adding carbs from the start, that defeats the purpose. I think it is almost a "must" that you need to go as low-carb as possible for at least say 4 - 8 weeks, to get your body to detox and to start adapting. I am really worried (and I always use myself as the sounding board) to just say "It's OK to add carbs back". If I heard that early on in my LCHF journey, my carb monster would have won the battle hands down.

 

Yes, absolutely. Maybe even as much as 3 months strict LCHF before experimenting with bringing a little back here and there.

[htone]

edit... snip,snip.... I have a strict LCHF diet around exercise, but during 3 hour+ sessions and races digest 300-350 kcal of carbs form both solid foods (bananas, marmite sandwich) and gels/chews.

 

I did a RER and VOmax test a week ago, and am waiting anxiously for the results. The RER will show the exact proportion of fat and glucose burning my body does at various HR. That way you can emperically measure how much carbs you need at a given HR/effort/pace and prevent carb overload.

 

Snytjie, do you not have a gut reaction to bread/wheat ? I simply cannot eat wheat anymore, I blow up like a balloon. So I am curious as to what you would replace that marmite sandwich with if you had to drop the bread ?

 

On that topic though, why marmite and not nutella ? (Just from a carb point of view).

 

Where did you do the RER and VO2max tests ? I got my VO2Max results immediately, so I am wondering why yours is taking a week - is it the RER portion (did they take muscle samples ?) ?

[tombeej]

Ja, any grain-based foods have about as negative effect on my health as processed, sugary foods*.

 

All breads/pasta/puddings/wholegrain cereals, etc. perch right at the top of my list of things I need to avoid, right alongside the various nasty fats out there.

 

 

(* I don't classify low-GI fruit as a sugary food.)

[htone]

Check out Dietdoctor's latest post !

 

http://www.dietdoctor.com/even-tour-de-france-cyclists-avoid-carbs-to-stay-lean

[Berg Man]

I just finished listening to the Matt Stone podcast on Jimmy Moore's site. I do feel he has some very good points there. I have also read his book on metabolism, "Diet Recovery 2" I have also read Taubes, Volek/Phinney and Noakes etc, and I believe what Matt Stones speaks about, in that the more we study about all this, the less we know.

 

I feel we tend to get very focused on the tiniest little things, as can be seen here and the old version thread, such as BG spikes and heart rates etc etc. The simple truth is that there is simply not enough long term studies to tell whether any of these LCHF diets are any good for us. Everyone gets a big fright when their numbers are not spot on and start to question every little aspect of their day. Surely this is not a way to live? Surely a sensible, easy to follow way of life is the only sustainable way. We know that starvation (calorie restricted diets) doesn't work. We know low fat is not good when substituted with refined carbs. But to sit every time we take a bite or drink at draw blood samples and test, test, test is not normal or sustainable. (Please note Htone, this is not a dig at you, your case is a bit different being type 2 and all that.) For every study that says that carbs are bad, there are studies that say the exact opposite. What if we wake up one day and realise (studies show) all this LCHF stuff is wrong? We are a bit stuffed then aren't we?

 

The 1 thing Matt states is that we must not put all carbs in the same category. Refined carbs (sugar, flour etc) are not the same as vegetables and the such. We pretty much know that the refined carbs are the bad ones as can be seen by the various diseases of modern man. The oils we use for cooking are also bad for us. Many cases that Matt has studied can even lead toward the LCHF way making the insulin problems worse in the long run. It may seem good for the short term, but eventually lead to problems in a different way. I think where he is misunderstood is his HED (high everything diet). The theory behind it is to simply break the dieting cycle. Many people simply try this way of eating and that type of diet without success. He is simply wants to break that and then get people to eat healthily.

 

I like reading both sides of the arguments, as I believe that we like to lean one way or the other and then attempt to convince people that it's the right way.

[Berg Man]

Check out Dietdoctor's latest post !

 

http://www.dietdocto...bs-to-stay-lean

 

Exactly, lots of veg, good fats/oils and meat

[htone]

I like reading both sides of the arguments, as I believe that we like to lean one way or the other and then attempt to convince people that it's the right way.

 

Berg Man, I don't see that as a dig at all. But you have to remember that not all of us are able to balance our lives in the same fashion. I, for instance, have a very short reward pathway, so I can very quickly stray off the beaten path if something provides me with any kind of reward. That is why I am advocating a fairly strict adherence to LCHF, otherwise I would most certainly slip into comfort food land in no time.

 

But, we (those who have been doing LCHF for a while) need to ask one question : "Has it improved ANYTHING regarding your health AT ALL ?"

 

I can throw out a list of things that have improved since on LCHF, and apart from the spurious heart rate, I have not had any ill effects. I do think that too many people try LCHF as a quick fix for weight loss, and not for health reasons, and you know what, that will fail in the same way that any fad diet will fail.

 

Having said the above, I could probably also argue that the mere fact that I am not consuming any grains have had an enormous range of benefits, ranging from gut to blood glucose improvements. And that is JUST cutting out the wheat. Start adding refined sugars, etc and suddenly there's my list. Does this mean that I HAVE to be in strict LCHF mode all the time - heck, NO. There's a whole spread of low-carb options to enjoy and you don't have to beat yourself up with the details.

 

At this point it sounds as if I am being defensive - that's not what I am trying to do. I am agreeing with you, but I am saying that not all of us are strong-willed and some of us (moi) have to focus on the little details in order to manage the big picture. In the longer run, if the "new science" about LCHF turns out to be incorrect, at least I will be able to say that I enjoyed my food and my health in a whole new way !

 

Namaste.

[tombeej]

In terms of 'measuring everything', I think it's almost all a fun personal discovery about ourselves. Sure, some have to take this diet more seriously than others, but I'd like to think that everyone on this site posting their BG numbers, etc. are doing it out of a healthy interest in their own health, so to speak.

 

And sure, there are a lot of very unhealthy fats out there (such as the vegetable oils we traditionally use for cooking). Just like we know there are lots of good carbs and bad carbs. These have all been discussed at length on this site though. I would be very surprised to hear of anyone with a reasonable understanding of LCHF who thinks it simply means all carbs are bad and all fats are good.

Edited July 19, 2013 by tombeej

[tombeej]

Exactly, lots of veg, good fats/oils and meat

 

Well, that pretty much sums up the paleo way, so we're hundred percent in agreement then