Nutritional Supplementation - What are we really paying for?

[jcza]

Same story....I have used

 

Hammer perpetuam, Powerbar IsoActive, Biogen Carbogen, PVM Octane, 32GI

 

All of them with the same result as game....and exactly why this is so confusing to me. When I am fit, it doesn't matter, when I have been lazy for a while again it doesn't matter

 

That 2 hour Hammer bottle works for me, nothing else comes close.

[rouxtjie]

That 2 hour Hammer bottle works for me, nothing else comes close.

Yea...look i am not saying they didn't work...if i ride with just water, I can feel myself getting pap after 2:00 of racing or hard riding. But anything works exactly the same for me when I am fit...energy drink wise, so why bother with the expense fancy energy drink. Maybe its just me.

[rouxtjie]

Oh and for recovery shakes, I can definitely feel a difference, hence me mostly only buying that. Have used USN's recovery shake, STF recovery and Hammer Recoverite...all of them worked pretty well on day where I rode into mordor and had to saddle up the donkey again the next day

[BarHugger]

One thing that still amaze me is the individualistic nature of the human body.....what works for one individual won't work for another. The reason behind this is that the body responds and adapts differently to its environment and the stimuli placed on it. If you grew up eating "pap and wors" your body adapts to it and develops the most efficient way it can to extract nutrients and energy from it. If you now throw it with something completely different (lets say creamy pasta with extra cheese and mushrooms) your body might experience it as something new and take longer to adjust to it. (It is like being DRINK FIKS, the low alcohol consumption and you get quickly tipsy, high alcohol consumption takes longer to get snottered).

 

The same with training. Train the way you play/participate. If you condition your body for long slow rides you become fit for long slow rides. If you condition your body for climbs, you become fit for climbs. It is referred to as the specificity of training. It can also be implicated in the specificty of nutrition. If simple sugars work for you as energy source and you feel comfortable with it.....thats your choice and poison. If have seen quite a few athletes change their supplementation habits and products ending up with a serious case of gastro and no performance improvement (or even participation).

 

There is no set guideline for this type of thing, only recommendations and "trial and error".

[jcza]

Yea...look i am not saying they didn't work...if i ride with just water, I can feel myself getting pap after 2:00 of racing or hard riding. But anything works exactly the same for me when I am fit...energy drink wise, so why bother with the expense fancy energy drink. Maybe its just me.

 

Ya fit helps...lots. Road race I use anything from half coke/half water to whatever other samples I have lying around. MTB is different because of the duration.

[rouxtjie]

One thing that still amaze me is the individualistic nature of the human body.....what works for one individual won't work for another. The reason behind this is that the body responds and adapts differently to its environment and the stimuli placed on it. If you grew up eating "pap and wors" your body adapts to it and develops the most efficient way it can to extract nutrients and energy from it. If you now throw it with something completely different (lets say creamy pasta with extra cheese and mushrooms) your body might experience it as something new and take longer to adjust to it. (It is like being DRINK FIKS, the low alcohol consumption and you get quickly tipsy, high alcohol consumption takes longer to get snottered).

 

The same with training. Train the way you play/participate. If you condition your body for long slow rides you become fit for long slow rides. If you condition your body for climbs, you become fit for climbs. It is referred to as the specificity of training. It can also be implicated in the specificty of nutrition. If simple sugars work for you as energy source and you feel comfortable with it.....thats your choice and poison. If have seen quite a few athletes change their supplementation habits and products ending up with a serious case of gastro and no performance improvement (or even participation).

 

There is no set guideline for this type of thing, only recommendations and "trial and error".

Good point and case...this is something I can buy into and supports my own experience. Hence me questioning the best / superior comment, its not a one size fits all.

 

Thank goodness my tummy likes cheapo game is all I can say.

[Reece_Rower]

From my experiences in rowing at school.. Creatine, Bicarb and Caffeine are the only "proven" supplements to have an effect on performance. There have been many "proven" tests and studies done involving cycling and rowing. I could certainly feel a difference during trials and races.

 

Cadence Nutrition's products say "scientifically formulated to potentially" as there is no 100% guarantee that the products work in every individual.

 

I will try and find the article from the book "Rowing Faster", where they support their claims with data and testing on Creatine, BIcarb and Caffeine.

 

An even better idea would be to go onto this website.. https://www.sciencetosport.com/forum/ and ask Dr Jeroen Swart and his team directly in the forum.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Reece_Rower

[lone one]

Has anyone tried Clif Bar - I have a mate doing Tri in the US and he swears by it

[MDW]

Why is it superior? Because it costs more? because the one is sugar and the other some fancy schmancy word?? I am not trying to flame you here but I cannot say I have had the same experience...game is cheap and chips, readily available at your corner cafe and comes in very handy packaging that allows you to mix 1L worth of drink. An the kicker is that I cannot tell the difference between it and the fancypants mixes. I can however tell the differences when I have been off the bike for a while or been lazy with my training which leads me to believe that the size / state of the engine is much more important than the petrol you put in.

 

 

Well that is what I was told when I used 32GI and bonked like a little girl. I asked about it and it was suggested that I should follow a low GI diet for 32GI to be effective as an energy source. Couldn't be bothered since its too much admin to follow such a diet and made 32GI drinks for a landscape engineer from then on until the tub ran out....he liked it though

Isomaltulose is an expensive carbohydrate which behaves like no other carbohydrate does. It provides a stable and consistent release of glucose into the blood stream for hours. There is no ways sucrose will ever do that. They behave completely differently. In actual fact there is no other carbohydrate on the market that will allow the body to burn fat while supplying it glucose. The steady stable supply of energy allows a consistent fat burn to take place assuming its not mixed with spiking products. That is the only reason not to mix it, its to maximise the fat burning effect, which at a controlled pace works incredibly well.

 

I am not sure who told u to follow a low GI diet on 32Gi, because some of the 32Gi products give you a glucose bomb like Accelerate and others are stability products. The key message behind the range is choose the product that matches your training or racing session. If you are doing a training ride and its only a few hours and easy then go with the Endure, if its many hours at a slow pace go with Endure in the bottle and take with some food solids such as a foodbar or chews, if its a very high intensity session then go with Accelerate and its a very high intensity session and you need additional calories then add in some food solids.

The thing sports nutrition is that its not a thumb suck, its a well thought out and strategised nutrition plan which needs to be tailored to an individual. I work with many professional and amateur athletes, guiding them to correct eating and fuelling, the majority of people out there just dont understand the importance or even how to approach it.

Game vs 32Gi seriously there is not comparison whatsoever. The one is a liability the other an asset ;-)

Edited February 18, 2014 by MDW

[rouxtjie]

Isomaltulose is an expensive carbohydrate which behaves like no other carbohydrate does. It provides a stable and consistent release of glucose into the blood stream for hours. There is no ways sucrose will ever do that. They behave completely differently. In actual fact there is no other carbohydrate on the market that will allow the body to burn fat while supplying it glucose. The steady stable supply of energy allows a consistent fat burn to take place assuming its not mixed with spiking products. That is the only reason not to mix it, its to maximise the fat burning effect, which at a controlled pace works incredibly well.

 

I am not sure who told u to follow a low GI diet on 32Gi, because some of the 32Gi products give you a glucose bomb like Accelerate and others are stability products. The key message behind the range is choose the product that matches your training or racing session. If you are doing a training ride and its only a few hours and easy then go with the Endure, if its many hours at a slow pace go with Endure in the bottle and take with some food solids such as a foodbar or chews, if its a very high intensity session then go with Accelerate and its a very high intensity session and you need additional calories then add in some food solids.

The thing sports nutrition is that its not a thumb suck, its a well thought out and strategised nutrition plan which needs to be tailored to an individual. I work with many professional and amateur athletes, guiding them to correct eating and fuelling, the majority of people out there just dont understand the importance or even how to approach it.

Game vs 32Gi seriously there is not comparison whatsoever. The one is a liability the other an asset ;-)

Thanks for the detailed response MDW, and yes on paper I see the science behind it. But I still don't understand why I don't feel one ounce of difference when using a hammer bottle as an example mixed exactly to their specs or a bottle of game. I seriously not trying to stir, I am quite interested. Surely if the one is soooo much better with this and that fancy carbs and this or that for recovery I would notice even if its just a little bit. The only advantage these mixes gives me is convenience, I totally agree on that point.

 

Basically my conclusion is if I go into a race undercooked, there is NO supplement that will make a difference, same if I trained my mielie off for a race...heck might as well run on coke and water then.

Edited February 18, 2014 by rouxtjie

[jcza]

Rouxtjie the difference is noticeable when you're going into the 4th and 5th hours and you still have another 2 - 3 hours to go.

 

Anything under 3 hours I agree with you.

[SwissVan]

Saw an interesting program on Pom (BBC or ITV not sure which one) TV last, missed the beginning (and the end....) but they were talking about the PLACEBO effect and at the time I flicked over to the specific channel were showing some top British track cyclists being fed some sort of wonder pill and then doing tests around a track....

 

Long story short, some of the guys who took a PLACEBO pill broke their own PB's and even some of the other cyclists who they had never beaten before...

 

And then there was a interview with a surgeon who performed back surgery on patients but without actually doing the critical part of the procedure (injecting cement / glue) leaving the patients thinking that he did the full procedure.... and they walked out of the hospital saying they feel much better....

 

Just saying, maybe next time just swish the expensive supplement around your mouth, pretending to swallow and then recycle it back into your drinks bottle....

Edited February 18, 2014 by SwissVan

[rouxtjie]

Rouxtjie the difference is noticeable when you're going into the 4th and 5th hours and you still have another 2 - 3 hours to go.

 

Anything under 3 hours I agree with you.

Nope, again my experience is different...joberg2c day 3 and 4 were big days...didn't make one ounce difference.

 

I did have recovery shakes though.

Edited February 18, 2014 by rouxtjie

[rouxtjie]

Rouxtjie the difference is noticeable when you're going into the 4th and 5th hours and you still have another 2 - 3 hours to go.

 

Anything under 3 hours I agree with you.

PS what race do you do that is 7 hours long....demmit.

[jcza]

Nope, again my experience is different...joberg2c day 3 and 4 were big days...didn't make one ounce difference.

 

I did have recovery shakes though.

 

You okes were nearly dead and I'm sure you chowed pies and doughnuts at the WPs.

 

PS what race do you do that is 7 hours long....demmit.

 

Atta. Raced with 1 x bottle of Hammer. Stopped at WP2 filled up with another Hammer. WP 3 filled up with 32GI (cause that is what was on offer), same again at WP4. At WP5 filled up with Coke and cruised home.

[rouxtjie]

You okes were nearly dead and I'm sure you chowed pies and doughnuts at the WPs.

 

 

 

Atta. Raced with 1 x bottle of Hammer. Stopped at WP2 filled up with another Hammer. WP 3 filled up with 32GI (cause that is what was on offer), same again at WP4. At WP5 filled up with Coke and cruised home.

*** man, skillz likes stopping...I hate it...makes me cramp later. Did have some boerewors somewhere in the states...that was lekkers.

 

Fair enough on Atta...but that is the exception though. Have never ridden over 7 hours so don't know.