Capricorn Posted June 11, 2014 Share Very interesting idea, but the internet says its been done before in the guise of Manitou's Stable Platform Valve (SPV). But reading up about SPV, the SPV valve is only half the equation that Penske brings to the table. The SPV valve acts against pedal bob, much like FOX's propedal. The difference here is what happens during bigger hits. SPV and other shocks then transition into standard damping curves via shimstacks and whatnot.What Penske is saying, that a shock equipped with regresssiv damping characteristics, can handle both anti-pedal bob and big hit damping in the same damping circuit. Propedal and SPV are add-ons, and they bring complexity and maintenance issues with them.Regressive valving according to Penske:The objective of the regressive valving is to produce a compression or rebound damping characteristic that allows increased low or mid-speed damping force for driver feel, while providing more suitable lower levels of high speed damping for bump absorption. Typically you will increase the low speed damping level in the shock, and decrease the spring rate, typically resulting in more mechanical grip.The above has context within motorsport but they see a benefit for MTB as well. The benefit is the wheel being more firmly planted/tracking the terrain to convert as much pedal-effort into forward speed, while under big hits the suspension remains supple but firm.In a normal progressive shock setup, the faster the shaft speed, the higher the compression damping increases in a non-linear fashion. Hence the term progressive damping.There are shocks with linear valving, where the damping is a linear function of the shaft speed.There's also digressive valving, where there is an initial amount of linearity, followed by constant damping force irrespective of shaft speed.Regressive damping is where the higher the shaft speed, the lower the damping force. This is Penske's playpen. Edited July 23, 2015 by Nick Captain Fastbastard Mayhem 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The MTBer Posted June 11, 2014 Share Saw the video just now on FB, seems legit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted June 11, 2014 Share I WANNA TRY IT!!! Â LOVE this new tech. And yes, Cap - I know I said that I was "meh" when it came to improvements in shock over and above my existing one, but you're right. If I had the cash.... Capricorn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capricorn Posted June 11, 2014 Share this 'development' is interesting if one thinks back to when DVO launched, and offered some very cool info on damper performance. In one of the images on their website, they clearly say progressive damping curves are not the best, and prefer digressive damping which makes a crap load of sense. http://www.dvosuspension.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Digressive-Vs-Progressive.001-1.jpg NB: as a reminder Air springs are by their nature progressive which is why i always advise against shocks and forks that wallow/dive during cornering, to have their air pressure increased instead of having the compression damping improved (more mid-travel support). On shocks and forks with 'cheap' damping circuits, you cannot however avoid firming up the ride by increasing the air pressure. But its'a false economy, as yes, your ride is firmer, but my word, does it hurt your hands and arms. The ride is so harsh you have to accomodate for the shock by lowering the pressure in your tyres. Terrible trade off to make. Edited June 11, 2014 by Capricorn Captain Fastbastard Mayhem and Spoke101 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capricorn Posted June 11, 2014 Share Here's the blurb from Rockshox wrt their new DebonAir upgrade to the Monarch range of shocks:Â MORE LINEAR SPRING CURVELower force levels to move the shock into its travel1st 1/3 of travel is what riders are most sensitive toMORE TRACTION AND CONTROLNo chop on initial hitBetter traction; rear wheel stays on the ground reacting to small bumpsDEBONAIR UPGRADE KITAir can upgrade for any MY14 Monarch/Monarch Plus and MY13 Monarch RT3Â still not quite in the same ballpark as Penske and DVO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantRH Posted June 11, 2014 Share Doesn't the Specialized brain work on a similar concept, distinguishing pedal bob vs ground hits? Through a hydraulic system this then increases or decreases the damping effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arendoog Posted June 11, 2014 Share This is not new .Spez brain does the same ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capricorn Posted June 11, 2014 Share I had to go read up about spesh's brain tech to see what the story was, and this is my opinion, so feel free to rage if i get it wrong  Brain, propedal, SPV: all the same thing: it's a just switch between very little active damping (to counteract pedalling forces), versus full activation of the suspension. Now, the RE: aktiv design is similar, in that it offers firm ride characteristics to counteract pedal forces under low shaft speeds, and then under higher shaft speeds, or bigger hits, the shock is fully active. It's the implementation that as far as i can tell from the little info have, that is very different from the implementation of brain and SPV and Propedal to achieve the same INITIAL behaviour. What happens after the suspension is fully active is very much new to MTB, ie, the introduction of regressive damping. So conceptually, what brain, SPV, propedal and RE:aktiv offers is the same up until the shock becomes fully active. That is, they all offer some type of anti pedal bob characteristics, but implementation is vastly different, and it is this difference between RE:aktiv and the others that impacts how the shock then becomes fully active, and this the 'all-new' part, for MTB at least. So dont get hung up on the first bit about anti pedal-bob. Edited June 11, 2014 by Capricorn Captain Fastbastard Mayhem 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaXiMuM Posted June 11, 2014 Share The shock stuff is cool, and looks very interesting.  But I had a close look at the suspension config, any Pyga in there?? Can't wait to read more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoLefty!! Posted June 11, 2014 Share Of course it legit!!!Its been used in INdy car and Formula 1 for about 11 years! Most recent F1 teams to utilize this damping is RedBull and Mercedes. McLaren is an old customer of Roger Penske and Ferrari has also used their dampers equiped with a similar damping tune. Its this sort of damping technology that allows the F1 cars to not roll much through the corners or squat under acceleration or dive under heavy braking but still be able to ride the bumps with full and supple suspension movement. trek are scoring two goals for 2015: Re;activ damping and 650b Fuel XC race bike! Spoke101 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisan Posted June 11, 2014 Share I've been having nightmares fine-tuning my RS Dual Air to fit my needs! This looks like a nightmare. A very awesome nightmare! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capricorn Posted June 12, 2014 Share Of course it legit!!!Its been used in INdy car and Formula 1 for about 11 years! Most recent F1 teams to utilize this damping is RedBull and Mercedes. McLaren is an old customer of Roger Penske and Ferrari has also used their dampers equiped with a similar damping tune. Its this sort of damping technology that allows the F1 cars to not roll much through the corners or squat under acceleration or dive under heavy braking but still be able to ride the bumps with full and supple suspension movement. trek are scoring two goals for 2015: Re;activ damping and 650b Fuel XC race bike! there's an interesting aspect of this damping application: preventing the car from being pushed to the ground by the very strong springs used in the suspension, but still allowing very active, high damping characteristics when hitting square edges like those curbs.  This is also probably the reason why DVO decided to go with digressive damping as opposed to regressive damping. I'm very keen to hear with air pressures/spring rates these RE:aktiv shocks are tuned with. I'm beginning to wonder if DVO doesn't have it right for bikes with digressive, while Trek is just trying to be different by going with a design not quite intended for cycling applications. They did say that the design was 'fine-tuned' by fox to suit a bicycle shock prior to manufacturing. There's multiple collaboration here, but exactly the percentage contribution is unknown. Its obvious the PR magnet is at all full strength here: Re. the F1 technology/Penske Racing drawcards. Edited June 12, 2014 by Capricorn GoLefty!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iwan Kemp Posted June 12, 2014 Share Great getting guys like Penske involved in the sport. Looking for more info on their 148mm rear spacing...found anything on that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iwan Kemp Posted June 12, 2014 Share Got it! http://spokemagazine.com/2014/06/11/trek-release-new-rear-suspension-platform-and-carbon-remedy/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iwan Kemp Posted June 12, 2014 Share Sure as hell is pretty http://spokemagazine.com/files/2014/06/SLorence_TrekFuelEX650b_001-632x421.jpg Captain Fastbastard Mayhem, T-Bob, ChUkKy and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted June 12, 2014 Share Got it! http://spokemagazine...-carbon-remedy/ And yet why not just go 150mm and have all that compatability from the DH wheeled side of things. Capricorn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now