Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted June 25, 2014 Posted June 25, 2014 No. Your not making sense regarding the wheelbase issue. Maybe you're saying it wrong. Countersteering effects cannot be measured in a parking lot. I dont think you properly understand counter steering.Nope. I definitely do understand it. My understanding can always improve, obviously, but I do understand the principles. Low speed, lean the bike under you and counter steer. works better on a bicycle in this case
Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted June 25, 2014 Posted June 25, 2014 if the contact patch moved backwards relative to the axle you would be heading over the bars. Its moves forward as the head angle slackens i.e. the vertical line drawn from the axle to the ground moves to the rear of the contact patch which stabilises the front wheelugh. Tim. Picture it. Bike on its side, bars level. If on its rhs (rh turn) then pull the left hand grip back (counter steer) where does the contact patch move relative to the axle? rearwards. what happens to the effective head angle? it steepens. if the contact patch moved backwards relative to the axle you would be heading over the bars. Its moves forward as the head angle slackens i.e. the vertical line drawn from the axle to the ground moves to the rear of the contact patch which stabilises the front wheel
VicanZA Posted June 25, 2014 Posted June 25, 2014 used to. But not at the level where I could effectively counter steer. The parking lot test - you can shorten the wheelbase quite a bit. It DOES work. You can turn tighter. saw this on CARS with my 4 year old kid.. CraigCCW 1
Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted June 25, 2014 Posted June 25, 2014 saw this on CARS with my 4 year old kid..Lol. relating to cars or 2 wheeled?
Fabian46 Posted June 25, 2014 Posted June 25, 2014 (edited) Nope. I definitely do understand it. My understanding can always improve, obviously, but I do understand the principles. Low speed, lean the bike under you and counter steer. works better on a bicycle in this case Ok, when you refer to countersteering and 2 wheels(in your case you referred to motorcycles) you have to take a few factors into consideration. Enough speed, enough lean angle, and enough/proper weight distribution. That said, when you are trying to turn bicycle in a parking lot, you wont need to countersteer...theres no need to because 1. you dont have enough speed 2. you dont have enough lean angle 3. YOUR IN A PARKING LOT...HOW FAST CAN YOU POSSIBLY BE GOING!.........Caps off...lol You are not shortening any wheelbase. With motorcycle racing, you balance out the effect of the wheelbase by entering a cornering at speed obviously, but to first apply the rear brake before you apply the front brake(proportionately obviously). This will cause the effect of lengthening the wheelbase, and then shortening it by applying the front brake. You dont want to shorten your base at high speed. Twitchy steering at highspeed is the opposite of what you want. Hope this makes more sense to you now... Edited June 25, 2014 by Fabian46 nathrix 1
Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted June 25, 2014 Posted June 25, 2014 Ok, when you refer to countersteering and 2 wheels(in your case you referred to motorcycles) you have to take a few factors into consideration. Enough speed, enough lean angle, and enough/proper weight distribution. That said, when you are trying to turn bicycle in a parking lot, you wont need to countersteer...theres no need to because 1. you dont have enough speed 2. you dont have enough lean angle 3. YOUR IN A PARKING LOT...HOW FAST CAN YOU POSSIBLY BE GOING!.........Caps off...lol You are not shortening any wheelbase. With motorcycle racing, you balance out the effect of the wheelbase by entering a cornering at speed obviously, but to first apply the rear brake before you apply the front brake(proportionately obviously). This will cause the effect of lengthening the wheelbase, and then shortening it by applying the front brake. You dont want to shorten your base at high speed. Twitchy steering at highspeed is the opposite of what you want. Hope this makes more sense to you now...Dude. you can lean the bike when you're out of the saddle. doesn't matter how fast you're going. out of the saddle, lean the bike hard (almost as if you're only in the outside pedal) and counter steer. at speed, it's that small movement of the bars in the direction opposite to thay which you are turning that allows you to turn just a little faster and harder. think about it for a second instead of trying to tell me that I'm wrong (I'm not, btw) and lean your fiets all the way over into its side. then fiddle with the bars and look at what happens to the resultant effective head angle and where the contact patch moves to, when you turn your bars to the left and right. I think you're confusing the 2 different types of counter steering, and trying to prove me wrong when thinking of the other version (which is applicable to bikes and cars) when you're trying to correct a slide, and when you're trying to reduce the wheelbase and steepen the head tube just a little. forget about braking for a while and just think about the steering and the effect that has on things.
Fabian46 Posted June 25, 2014 Posted June 25, 2014 Dude. you can lean the bike when you're out of the saddle. doesn't matter how fast you're going. out of the saddle, lean the bike hard (almost as if you're only in the outside pedal) and counter steer. at speed, it's that small movement of the bars in the direction opposite to thay which you are turning that allows you to turn just a little faster and harder. think about it for a second instead of trying to tell me that I'm wrong (I'm not, btw) and lean your fiets all the way over into its side. then fiddle with the bars and look at what happens to the resultant effective head angle and where the contact patch moves to, when you turn your bars to the left and right. I think you're confusing the 2 different types of counter steering, and trying to prove me wrong when thinking of the other version (which is applicable to bikes and cars) when you're trying to correct a slide, and when you're trying to reduce the wheelbase and steepen the head tube just a little. forget about braking for a while and just think about the steering and the effect that has on things. Ok. You trying to confuse everyone with alot of technical jargon which doesnt make alot of sense. I raced motorcycles, and have been riding for years....your reference to MotoGP makes no sense....so you misunderstand the concept when it comes to Motorcycle racing. Again, at slow speed...there is no need to countersteer. Wheelbase issue....lolol....just drop it man... I will try and leave it here. Maybe in future, make reference to something that you actually have a bit of knowledge about. No offence intended...but lets talk sense here rather
RockCoach Posted June 25, 2014 Posted June 25, 2014 Ok, let's forget the technicalities of the physics of the wheelbase shortening. On a bicycle, you want to get the bike leaned over into a RH corner. Now think about it... - do you just lean your body (or fall) towards the inside of a corner and the bike follows by leaning over that side? You can, but horrible technique. You actually want to lean the bike but remain relatively upright. - do you just push down on the inside RH grip and pull up on the LH grip? You can but you are adding unnecessary additional forces to the steering which will not make for a smoothly railed corner. You will feel a lot of steering feedback and you will be forever correcting the line.- do you, on approaching the corner (standing), turn slightly to the left, this causes the bike to lean over to the right by itself (with no steering input), you remain balanced over the bike by staying upright with full weight on outside pedal. Then with very light hands you allow the bars to turn to the right and flop by themselves (best way I can explain it) into a position where they want to be. For every differing radius of corner, and different speeds there is an ideal bike lean angle with corresponding bar position. That's the best I can explain in writing. If you want better talk to me in person BTW...This works at parking lot speeds as well as when you are hauling the mail.Many people actually do counter steer without even knowing that they do.Also remember that riding a bike is a series of minute falls to either side.The closest a car comes to two wheeled counter steering is the Finnish Flick! Captain Fastbastard Mayhem 1
Goosebay Posted June 25, 2014 Posted June 25, 2014 You can't countersteer at low speed, just not possible. If you want to picture the effect at higher speeds, get Brian Lopes book, or picture an ice cream cone rolling in a circle, a very basic picture of what happens when you lean a bike. To try and understand the two types of countersteering1 to tip the bike into the turn at higher speeds2 to correct the bike in a slide or drift, or hold it to continue the corner, only at high speeds Fabian46 and nathrix 2
Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted June 25, 2014 Posted June 25, 2014 Ok. You trying to confuse everyone with alot of technical jargon which doesnt make alot of sense. I raced motorcycles, and have been riding for years....your reference to MotoGP makes no sense....so you misunderstand the concept when it comes to Motorcycle racing. Again, at slow speed...there is no need to countersteer. Wheelbase issue....lolol....just drop it man... I will try and leave it here. Maybe in future, make reference to something that you actually have a bit of knowledge about. No offence intended...but lets talk sense here ratherNo reason to get personal when you don't understand the underlying physics... If you don't understand me, just read sliicks post. It DOES work at low speed, trust me. RockCoach 1
porqui Posted June 25, 2014 Posted June 25, 2014 (edited) To turn a bike at ANY speed you HAVE to countersteer - you might not even realise it and that is on any surface.It has to do with changing your CG. If you want to turn left you steer to the right to shift your CG to the left side of your bike - the moment that happens you steer to the left so as bring the bike in underneath you again but you control by how much so as to keep a curve as soon as you want to straighten out you turn an extra little bit to the left so as to get the bike under your CG and all is centred. Have you ever worked out why you cannot keep your bike on the yellow line on the road - it's because you are always "falling" and you have to correct your CG all the time by bringing the bike in underneath you.In a corner you are "falling" all the time but you control the rate at which you are falling.To change your CG it is best to ride the bike out from underneath you but you correct again at a rate. "Going to get SHOT for this but double flame suite on!" Edited June 25, 2014 by porqui RockCoach 1
RockCoach Posted June 25, 2014 Posted June 25, 2014 No reason to get personal when you don't understand the underlying physics... If you don't understand me, just read sliicks post. It DOES work at low speed, trust me. For sure. At slow speed your stability decreases and "falling" to either side is more pronounced which is why you tend to steer more. It's not necessary to counter steer at walking speed but not only is it perfectly possible to do slowly, it is easier to demonstrate as you can exaggerate the movements. Captain Fastbastard Mayhem 1
Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted June 25, 2014 Posted June 25, 2014 For sure. At slow speed your stability decreases and "falling" to either side is more pronounced which is why you tend to steer more. It's not necessary to counter steer at walking speed but not only is it perfectly possible to do slowly, it is easier to demonstrate as you can exaggerate the movements.precisely!
GoLefty!! Posted June 25, 2014 Posted June 25, 2014 all these technicalities has nothing to do with the wheelbase...
Fabian46 Posted June 25, 2014 Posted June 25, 2014 No reason to get personal when you don't understand the underlying physics... If you don't understand me, just read sliicks post. It DOES work at low speed, trust me. Take some time to read what I said. I said there is no "NEED" to countersteer. What would be the purpose of counter steering at walking speed? Dont depend on other people to make your point. So i dont have to go to Sliicks post to address something you said. What "you" are saying is nonsensical. Of course you can apply countersteering methods at any speed....but its not necessary. Do you understand that? And let me explain another thing to you. In motorcycle racing, they dont have to try and counter steer, because the technique of leading into the corner with the shoulder and looking through the corner changes the position of shoulders, directly affecting the input on your bars = countersteer. Dont mistake countersteering with weight shifting.
Fabian46 Posted June 25, 2014 Posted June 25, 2014 all these technicalities has nothing to do with the wheelbase...And I thank you!
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