My Hill Climbing Technique

[SwissVan]

OK.....next question. What is your tested max heart rate?

 

Following that, what is your avg effort expressed as percentage of maximum heart rate seperately for all three bouts?

 

Thanks for the info.

 

Do not really know, I have not done a max HR test for many years and don't use HR percentages.

If i recall correctly it was 189 on the bike

[Dicky DQ]

Seriously now, I stand in the saddle to climb but do so with my hands in the drops.  I'm interested to find out what hand position other hubbers prefer to use.

If you are a blond and on a bike we would prefer you to use this hand position. 

[BarHugger]

Do not really know, I have not done a max HR test for many years and don't use HR percentages.

If i recall correctly it was 189 on the bike

This information helps in the analysis of your data. You indicate that you might have a HRmax of 189. Using this as reference, the following can be calculated (again with questionable mathematical capabilities).

 

Standing bout @ avg HR of 147bpm - relative HR intensity of 77.8%

(no fatigue accumulation)

 

Seated high cadence @ avg HR of 150bpm - relative HR intensity of 79.4% (previous bout fatigue accumulation??)

 

Seated low cadence @ avg HR of 149bpm - relative HR intensity of 78.8% (previous bout fatigue accumulation????)

 

Utilizing the following table (see below) as reference it seems that your exercise intensity according to HR was in Zone 3 (tempo training).

 

It might be that the workload intensity utilised during the test was not at a sufficient level associated with use of standing technique as a means propulsion. This can influence the validity and reliability of the data analysis in determining which technique is more favourable at high workloads as your current physiological stress is low compared to your HRmax.

 

The recommendation is that you repeat the same protocol as developed by you at an intensity of 300W. This is calculated utilising 250W as 90% of your FTP power and the lowest intensity of Zone 5 (VO2 -106%).

 

Maybe even consider pushing the lower limits of Zone 6. This roughly equates to a workload resistance of between 325-350W.

 

It would be interesting to compare the results gained under high intensity conditions to the ones presented currently.

 

 

However, your data does seem to support the idea that in the long run there is actually no difference between being seated or standing, considering all other factors and variables, excluding the awesomeness factor.

[SwissVan]

 

The recommendation is that you repeat the same protocol as developed by you at an intensity of 300W. This is calculated utilising 250W as 90% of your FTP power and the lowest intensity of Zone 5 (VO2 -106%).

 

Maybe even consider pushing the lower limits of Zone 6. This roughly equates to a workload resistance of between 325-350W.

 

It would be interesting to compare the results gained under high intensity conditions to the ones presented currently.

 

 

LOL 

 

I've done my bit for now, my recommendation is that you get on your bike and do your own high intensity efforts, we need more victims to feed into Henleys databank.

 

Jou beurt kollega

[BarHugger]

LOL

 

I've done my bit for now, my recommendation is that you get on your bike and do your own high intensity efforts, we need more victims to feed into Henleys databank.

 

Jou beurt kollega

Unfortunately can't.......do not own a road bike or fancy electronic IDT. Just an old and heavy MTB steed that favours the dirt.

 

Still need to figure out and perfect the standing technique because ascending a steep rockey ascent where grip is crucial, for me standing just contributes to the rear wheel losing grip and spinning.

 

So, I just leave my big heavy ass in the seat, select a gear, drop the head, relax the shoulders, focus on breathing.......and grind it out.

 

Back to you ;-)

[Nibali]

Unfortunately can't.......do not own a road bike or fancy electronic IDT. Just an old and heavy MTB steed that favours the dirt.

 

Still need to figure out and perfect the standing technique because ascending a steep rockey ascent where grip is crucial, for me standing just contributes to the rear wheel losing grip and spinning.

 

So, I just leave my big heavy ass in the seat, select a gear, drop the head, relax the shoulders, focus on breathing.......and grind it out.

 

Back to you ;-)

 

Sorry for the hi-jack. On the topic of standing climbs in MTB, have you tried keeping your weight further back while standing? Because sometimes you do need the power to get over a silly gradient, but over slippery stuff. I find that by shifting my weight to the back (basically barely lifting myself out of the saddle) helps in these situations. *Hi-jack off*

 

Back to the topic. Interesting reading so far. I wonder if looking at this in terms of just heart rate is actually worth it. Shouldn't muscle fatigue also be considered here, so more of what Pulse is trying to do (even though I have no clue how you measure this). Or maybe doing actual slogs up a proper climb (say +/- 5km) with the different techniques on different days/weekends so you can minimise the effect of fatigue build-up over successive efforts (you can make do with only a PM and HR monitor).

 

But hey, I'm probably not qualified enough to make any statements... And I also don't have a PM (or a bike where I am currently), so sorry SwissVan, I can't help, haha!

[BarHugger]

There is a very simple way.......barring using a laboratory set-up where cycling variables can be manipulated and physiological parameters can be measured by using ECG, EMG, metabolic cart, force transducers, power meters, blood lactate concentrations, etc.

 

Find a nice climb of approximately 5km with avg grade of 7-8%.

 

Trial 1: Seated the whole way

 

Trail 2: Standing the whole way

 

Trail 3: Seated/standing combo the whole way - rider determined

 

Connect rider to Zephyr system.....(maybe portable VO2 device)........measure blood lactate at start, end and rate of recovery.......but more importantly....

 

.....which technique results in the quickest time from start to end.....with the least amount of fatigue.

[SwissVan]

Unfortunately can't.......do not own a road bike or fancy electronic IDT. Just an old and heavy MTB steed that favours the dirt.

 

Still need to figure out and perfect the standing technique because ascending a steep rockey ascent where grip is crucial, for me standing just contributes to the rear wheel losing grip and spinning.

 

So, I just leave my big heavy ass in the seat, select a gear, drop the head, relax the shoulders, focus on breathing.......and grind it out.

 

Back to you ;-)

 

Excuses excuses, you don't need a IDT or power meter.

A gym membership with some decent bikes would do the trick

 

Or just follow this advice

 

There is a very simple way.......barring using a laboratory set-up where cycling variables can be manipulated and physiological parameters can be measured by using ECG, EMG, metabolic cart, force transducers, power meters, blood lactate concentrations, etc.

 

Find a nice climb of approximately 5km with avg grade of 7-8%.

 

Trial 1: Seated the whole way

 

Trail 2: Standing the whole way

 

Trail 3: Seated/standing combo the whole way - rider determined

 

Connect rider to Zephyr system.....(maybe portable VO2 device)........measure blood lactate at start, end and rate of recovery.......but more importantly....

 

.....which technique results in the quickest time from start to end.....with the least amount of fatigue.

[TALUS]

Never as straightforward as it seems.

 

For instance : by standing you probably increase the pressure in the whole leg more than sitting (especially if you actually deliver more power as is mostly accepted). This will imply increased venous pressure which in turn increases cardiac preload. Preload is a major factor in determining cardiac contractility and thus output. If your heart has increased output the negative feedback loop will limit heart rate.

 

Short version : heart rate may be a confounder.

 

Just saying.

[Pulse]

Increased activity of the upper body while standing will also contribute (minimally) to the increased pre-load, as would increased accentric activity in the contralateral leg

[BarHugger]

Hahaha........Swissie old boy.......now you are just trying to catch babers with dynamite.

 

Gym membership......what is that?

 

The other suggestion with the bike is regularly done......but like stated......big fat ass stays seated.

[SwissVan]

 

 

Back to the topic. Interesting reading so far. I wonder if looking at this in terms of just heart rate is actually worth it. Shouldn't muscle fatigue also be considered here, so more of what Pulse is trying to do (even though I have no clue how you measure this). Or maybe doing actual slogs up a proper climb (say +/- 5km) with the different techniques on different days/weekends so you can minimise the effect of fatigue build-up over successive efforts (you can make do with only a PM and HR monitor).

 

But hey, I'm probably not qualified enough to make any statements... And I also don't have a PM (or a bike where I am currently), so sorry SwissVan, I can't help, haha!

 

From my little test and past experience with climbing, muscle fatigue is definitely an issue when standing for to long. That being said i did not feel and DOMS or muscle fatigue today after my 6 minutes of standing last night, despite not ever training like that (usually would stand for much shorter time..just to stretch and relax muscles and give the tenderloin some air)

 

Naturally if you (not you, anyone in general..  ) plan to stand for lengthy periods then you should probably train to that by standing more in training...

 

However just common old standing is not the point, which was to stand using the Henley bunny hop technique (forgive me Henley, but i know not what else to call it for now)

[SwissVan]

Hahaha........Swissie old boy.......now you are just trying to catch babers with dynamite.

 

Gym membership......what is that?

 

The other suggestion with the bike is regularly done......but like stated......big fat ass stays seated.

 

Stop cycling with Blondie, or just ignore her instructions to stay seated.

Its for a good cause

[Pulse]

As far as I understand the Henley hop, it involves significant lateral movement of the bike under combined load of the extending leg, and upper body. This will be impossible to replicate on an IDT, as it is stable and doesn't allow lateral movement of the bike.

 

I think irrespective of the exact technique, cardiac load would change, as per TALUS, perhaps making heart rate a less than ideal measure

[Spoke101]

I am an out and out climber, 188cm; 60kg.

 

There are 2 major factors which determine where I sit or stand on a climb.

 

• The gradient % anything over 12% and I find standing with my weight over the bars more efficient as when seated you are having to hold your body weight with your arms so that you don't slide off he back of the saddle.

 

• The effort at which you are climbing at. If I'm going slowly up a steep climb where I'm in my easiest gear and my cadence is lower than 70 then I find standing in a large gear easier.

 

I think that the statement of "look at how some of the pro's stand" is maybe not understood to it's entirety as normally they are racing, so going at 80-100% and those climbs are not comparable to what we have here. The gradients are generally steeper and speeds are also lower. So it you took the seated vs standing ratio for lets say any gradient over 4% I would say most of the time they would be seated.

 

On a side note I ride/race at domestic pro level and notice an increase in HR of between 15-20bpm when going from sitting to standing when riding at 70-80% of max.

[BarHugger]

Stop cycling with Blondie, or just ignore her instructions to stay seated.

Its for a good cause

Noted......but please we need more of your incredible knowledge and input.......