Need help

[Slapsock]

Shame man - what happened to them?

Sad story, some guy borrowed them and I never saw them again

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

. 

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Sad story, some guy borrowed them and I never saw them again

I still owe you those spuds that were supposed to replace them.

 

Would you prefer flats?

[Slapsock]

I still owe you those spuds that were supposed to replace them.

 

Would you prefer flats?

 

Yes I remember, I went to the post box every evening only to find nothing and come back inside all depressed. I bought SPDs since then so I would actually prefer flats, the problem is that the depression affected me so much I had to move countries and now I live in England so I'm not entirely sure how you are going to get them here?

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Yes I remember, I went to the post box every evening only to find nothing and come back inside all depressed. I bought SPDs since then so I would actually prefer flats, the problem is that the depression affected me so much I had to move countries and now I live in England so I'm not entirely sure how you are going to get them here?

Sea arrrrr sea.

 

Serious though? You in blighty?

 

I see you are. You have mail

[Flowta]

Sea arrrrr sea.

 

Serious though? You in blighty?

 

I see you are. You have mail

In his post box?

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

In his post box?

of a fashion, yes. 

 

e-pos. 

[Myth]

Honestly, to get back to discussion at hand, I've see so many beginner cyclists that were sold clipless pedals and shoes with their bikes so the shop can make a few grand extra from them (sorry if you're a bikeshop owner and this does not refer to you, I know I'm generalizing a bit here, but so be it). These beginners fall their buts off a few times, but stick with clipless as they've dished out a lot of money for it and they think it's uncool to be on flats, and NEVER get the confidence to ride even the slightest technical stuff. You see it at races all the time, where these beginners have moved on a few months/years later, they are fit enough by then to ride the crap out of a 70 or 90km mtb race, but literally get off at every bloody rock garden (and I'm actually not even referring to proper rock gardens here, mere a few loose klippies). Get some flats and learn proper technique so you don't pee the rest of us off by being one of those okes at the races that get off the bike in front of us to take a walk while we are actually not busy with Die Otter staptoer, but rather a mtb race. In my view you actually need to earn the right to ride clipless once you've first mastered the skills on flats. Sorry if this comes across as harsh, but that's the way it is.

 

And yes, I ride both flats and clipless, each has its place. But I'm sure glad I took the time to master a few things on flats first.

[BenReaper]

Honestly, to get back to discussion at hand, I've see so many beginner cyclists that were sold clipless pedals and shoes with their bikes so the shop can make a few grand extra from them (sorry if you're a bikeshop owner and this does not refer to you, I know I'm generalizing a bit here, but so be it). These beginners fall their buts off a few times, but stick with clipless as they've dished out a lot of money for it and they think it's uncool to be on flats, and NEVER get the confidence to ride even the slightest technical stuff. You see it at races all the time, where these beginners have moved on a few months/years later, they are fit enough by then to ride the crap out of a 70 or 90km mtb race, but literally get off at every bloody rock garden (and I'm actually not even referring to proper rock gardens here, mere a few loose klippies). Get some flats and learn proper technique so you don't pee the rest of us off by being one of those okes at the races that get off the bike in front of us to take a walk while we are actually not busy with Die Otter staptoer, but rather a mtb race. In my view you actually need to earn the right to ride clipless once you've first mastered the skills on flats. Sorry if this comes across as harsh, but that's the way it is.

 

And yes, I ride both flats and clipless, each has its place. But I'm sure glad I took the time to master a few things on flats first.

You're post, and the maaaany others advocating the use of flats for learning skills, makes me feel as though I missed a step in my riding development somewhere. I rode on the cheap plastic flats for 5 months when I started cycling and then changed over to clipless pedals. Have been cycling for 3 years in total now and I see myself at this stage as a slighly above 'average' skilled rider. Did I perhaps though skip a step or two in my skills development by going to clipless so soon?

 

I am quite fast, not so much on the ups anymore, but I deel with the downs pretty well, I can negotiate rock gardens and similar section rather well both up and down at relative speed. The only features on a trail that intimidates me at this stage is drop-offs and ramps. I tend to just roll over/through them as I encounter them and my fear of getting hurt is what keeps my handling skills over/through these obstacles sharp enough not to fall. Although barely not falling in most cases.

 

Now would going back to flats benefit me in anyway for dealing with these obstacles? For everything else I can't see any reason to change from my current pedals.

 

I must add, the last time I followed another hubbers advice on the trail I ended up eating some dirt. "just drop your seatpost at the clamp", (you guys know who you are) , slammed it all the way and realized that my riding style relied on a seat between my legs to help steer the bike through the turns. This experience made me weary and hesitant of following advice that deviates from my usual ways.

 

Sent from my S40 using Tapatalk

[Fox3]

You're post, and the maaaany others advocating the use of flats for learning skills, makes me feel as though I missed a step in my riding development somewhere. I rode on the cheap plastic flats for 5 months when I started cycling and then changed over to clipless pedals. Have been cycling for 3 years in total now and I see myself at this stage as a slighly above 'average' skilled rider. Did I perhaps though skip a step or two in my skills development by going to clipless so soon?

 

I am quite fast, not so much on the ups anymore, but I deel with the downs pretty well, I can negotiate rock gardens and similar section rather well both up and down at relative speed. The only features on a trail that intimidates me at this stage is drop-offs and ramps. I tend to just roll over/through them as I encounter them and my fear of getting hurt is what keeps my handling skills over/through these obstacles sharp enough not to fall. Although barely not falling in most cases.

 

Now would going back to flats benefit me in anyway for dealing with these obstacles? For everything else I can't see any reason to change from my current pedals.

 

I must add, the last time I followed another hubbers advice on the trail I ended up eating some dirt. "just drop your seatpost at the clamp", (you guys know who you are) , slammed it all the way and realized that my riding style relied on a seat between my legs to help steer the bike through the turns. This experience made me weary and hesitant of following advice that deviates from my usual ways.

 

Sent from my S40 using Tapatalk

I agree with BenReaper in that I also feel like I missed something in my skills development now. But I must say that when I switched to clipless I could feel a definite change in my abilty to climb (which is still not great) and my confidence has grown on the down sections even when clipped in as it forced me to improve my bike handling cause I can't put my foot down or get off when it's tough. Flats ruined my shins, but each person is going to differ in their riding style, preference and opinion on this. To each his own.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

I must add, the last time I followed another hubbers advice on the trail I ended up eating some dirt. "just drop your seatpost at the clamp", (you guys know who you are) , slammed it all the way and realized that my riding style relied on a seat between my legs to help steer the bike through the turns. This experience made me weary and hesitant of following advice that deviates from my usual ways.

 

LOL. Dude... Honesty time. 

 

Do you seriously think that the eating dirt was from you dropping your saddle, rather than it being the first time you had been on the trail, maybe not anticipating the corner properly and the front just pushing wide, leading to you falling on the inside when you couldn't save it? If you'd put a foot out, you likely wouldn't have fallen... 

 

Granted, the difference of normally having a saddle in the raised position would have felt different and would probably have added to it, but I don't think it's fair to blame the off on the fact that we (Meezo, myself, Eddy Gordo and a few others) said that you would be able to maneuver the bike more effectively if you dropped your saddle... You also put it straight back up after the earthworks, so you weren't able to get an accurate representation of the advantage a dropped saddle brings. 

 

If so, it's the first time I've heard of a dropped saddle being a hindrance.

 

But anyway - to your question. Most of the people I've seen move over to flats have seen it as some sort of revelation, and stayed there. Some have gone back with newfound skills, and been able to build on them on the cleats platform (which allows you to pull up with your legs - can give you extra clearance if the hop / jump was initiated normally, bad if you're initiating the jump by pulling up)

 

In your case, I'd say that more important would be a skills session (as would be the same in my case) BUT in the meantime a set of flats would help highlight any weak spots in your current jump / drop / braking technique pretty quickly, and allow you to build on those properly. As in they wouldn't enable you to pull up on the pedals to initiate a bunny hop - you'd just jump off the pedals if you did that - and you'd have to learn the proper technique of pre-loading, lifting the front and then literally jumping - which forces the bike to follow your movements (like an ollie in skateboarding or a box jump in normal fitness training) which, incidentally, you can move across to cleats once you've got the basics, then build on that.  

 

As for the confidence thing - I suffer from it too, after a few nasty crashes (concussions, cracked & bruised ribs, wrists, collarbones, you know - the usual) and a healthy dose of self-preservation nopes. Will flats help with that? They should, if you start with the basics and progress when you have "mastered" them ie manual --> bunny hop --> drop --> jump, because you'll have built them properly, without any outside assistance from the cleats which means you could get the form wrong. But then there's also the mindfuckery going on at the same time, which only experience and confidence will cure.

 

Now - cleats & self learning vs flats & self learning vs cleats & skills session vs flats & skills session (which is ACTUALLY the crux of it all)

 

I'd say it goes from left to right in terms of preference. Learning how to do things yourself, cleats will hinder your progression by forgiving bad technique whereas flats will highlight any problems and punish you for them, forcing you to learn the proper way through trial and error. Ultimately, if you learn using flats you would have better technique at the end of the day, and be able to ride better.

 

However, if you have cleats and go for a skills session, that will always trump trying to teach yourself how to do something with flats (I'm talking time spent practicing and trying to get it right). That's due to the teacher (if they know what they're talking about) being able to identify what you're doing wrong (ie identifying the error without punishing you) but also telling you HOW to correct it. So they're performing the job that flats do, without the pain from potential shin strikes, AND facilitating the teaching function. 

 

However, again, if you go to a skills session with flats, you'll have input from both teacher and pedals, and thereafter you'll also be able to identify problems in the future as the flats will not allow you to get away with bad technique.

 

There's also a reason why MANY top racers, regardless of what pedal system they use, like to use flats fro their off-season training and play sessions. 

 

So the answer, in a nutshell, is yes but not necessarily. If you're not going to go for a skills session, then flats. If you're going to go for a skills session or 6, they will identify your problems, help you work through them and help you build on your technique.

[NicoBoshoff]

Been on flats, hated them once I got all the basics below the belt (bunny hops, jumping etc.).  I just hated the feeling of minute shifts in my foot position (bit of an OCD thing).

 

 

BUT, I am going to be putting on some flats on my bike the December Holidays purely for the sake of going to the school fields and learning how to wheelie without turning into one giant bruise.  Wheelies and manuals are the two things I just can't get right.  Used to blame my bike's wheelbase, but now I'm on shorter chainstays and I still can't do it for sh*t.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Been on flats, hated them once I got all the basics below the belt (bunny hops, jumping etc.).  I just hated the feeling of minute shifts in my foot position (bit of an OCD thing).

 

 

BUT, I am going to be putting on some flats on my bike the December Holidays purely for the sake of going to the school fields and learning how to wheelie without turning into one giant bruise.  Wheelies and manuals are the two things I just can't get right.  Used to blame my bike's wheelbase, but now I'm on shorter chainstays and I still can't do it for sh*t.

Me neither. I blame it on gravity. World wants me to stay put. Also why I can't jump for shaite. 

[BenReaper]

LOL. Dude... Honesty time.

 

Do you seriously think that the eating dirt was from you dropping your saddle, rather than it being the first time you had been on the trail, maybe not anticipating the corner properly and the front just pushing wide, leading to you falling on the inside when you couldn't save it? If you'd put a foot out, you likely wouldn't have fallen...

 

Granted, the difference of normally having a saddle in the raised position would have felt different and would probably have added to it, but I don't think it's fair to blame the off on the fact that we (Meezo, myself, Eddy Gordo and a few others) said that you would be able to maneuver the bike more effectively if you dropped your saddle... You also put it straight back up after the earthworks, so you weren't able to get an accurate representation of the advantage a dropped saddle brings.

 

If so, it's the first time I've heard of a dropped saddle being a hindrance.

 

But anyway - to your question. Most of the people I've seen move over to flats have seen it as some sort of revelation, and stayed there. Some have gone back with newfound skills, and been able to build on them on the cleats platform (which allows you to pull up with your legs - can give you extra clearance if the hop / jump was initiated normally, bad if you're initiating the jump by pulling up)

 

In your case, I'd say that more important would be a skills session (as would be the same in my case) BUT in the meantime a set of flats would help highlight any weak spots in your current jump / drop / braking technique pretty quickly, and allow you to build on those properly. As in they wouldn't enable you to pull up on the pedals to initiate a bunny hop - you'd just jump off the pedals if you did that - and you'd have to learn the proper technique of pre-loading, lifting the front and then literally jumping - which forces the bike to follow your movements (like an ollie in skateboarding or a box jump in normal fitness training) which, incidentally, you can move across to cleats once you've got the basics, then build on that.

 

As for the confidence thing - I suffer from it too, after a few nasty crashes (concussions, cracked & bruised ribs, wrists, collarbones, you know - the usual) and a healthy dose of self-preservation nopes. Will flats help with that? They should, if you start with the basics and progress when you have "mastered" them ie manual --> bunny hop --> drop --> jump, because you'll have built them properly, without any outside assistance from the cleats which means you could get the form wrong. But then there's also the mindfuckery going on at the same time, which only experience and confidence will cure.

 

Now - cleats & self learning vs flats & self learning vs cleats & skills session vs flats & skills session (which is ACTUALLY the crux of it all)

 

I'd say it goes from left to right in terms of preference. Learning how to do things yourself, cleats will hinder your progression by forgiving bad technique whereas flats will highlight any problems and punish you for them, forcing you to learn the proper way through trial and error. Ultimately, if you learn using flats you would have better technique at the end of the day, and be able to ride better.

 

However, if you have cleats and go for a skills session, that will always trump trying to teach yourself how to do something with flats (I'm talking time spent practicing and trying to get it right). That's due to the teacher (if they know what they're talking about) being able to identify what you're doing wrong (ie identifying the error without punishing you) but also telling you HOW to correct it. So they're performing the job that flats do, without the pain from potential shin strikes, AND facilitating the teaching function.

 

However, again, if you go to a skills session with flats, you'll have input from both teacher and pedals, and thereafter you'll also be able to identify problems in the future as the flats will not allow you to get away with bad technique.

 

There's also a reason why MANY top racers, regardless of what pedal system they use, like to use flats fro their off-season training and play sessions.

 

So the answer, in a nutshell, is yes but not necessarily. If you're not going to go for a skills session, then flats. If you're going to go for a skills session or 6, they will identify your problems, help you work through them and help you build on your technique.

Bwahahaha, knew that bit there would draw your attention! I was joking about the dropped seat, although that was IMHO the reason I fell I don't blame you guys at all, it was good advice you gave me, but I had to go over the top and slam the thing all the way down and I was not yet ready for a 200mm drop.

 

I agree that a skills lesson will help alot to get over some of the issues I'm having, as will correct frame size and/or geometry for the long travel fork, all in good time. For know I will maybe go out riding with a pair of flat shoes on the flat side of those dual pedals I've got on the GT and do some jumps and drops over and over again. I think a big part of my problem is also that I ride mostly on my XTC and in true dirt roadie fashion its all about speed and distance on non technical jeeptrack and gravel roads. We only have the odd 100m single track section, jump or drop off every 5km's. Will go out to these sections and as you guys say, "session" them.

 

Sent from my S40 using Tapatalk

[Meezo]

You're post, and the maaaany others advocating the use of flats for learning skills, makes me feel as though I missed a step in my riding development somewhere. I rode on the cheap plastic flats for 5 months when I started cycling and then changed over to clipless pedals. Have been cycling for 3 years in total now and I see myself at this stage as a slighly above 'average' skilled rider. Did I perhaps though skip a step or two in my skills development by going to clipless so soon?

 

I am quite fast, not so much on the ups anymore, but I deel with the downs pretty well, I can negotiate rock gardens and similar section rather well both up and down at relative speed. The only features on a trail that intimidates me at this stage is drop-offs and ramps. I tend to just roll over/through them as I encounter them and my fear of getting hurt is what keeps my handling skills over/through these obstacles sharp enough not to fall. Although barely not falling in most cases.

 

Now would going back to flats benefit me in anyway for dealing with these obstacles? For everything else I can't see any reason to change from my current pedals.

 

I must add, the last time I followed another hubbers advice on the trail I ended up eating some dirt. "just drop your seatpost at the clamp", (you guys know who you are) , slammed it all the way and realized that my riding style relied on a seat between my legs to help steer the bike through the turns. This experience made me weary and hesitant of following advice that deviates from my usual ways.

 

Sent from my S40 using Tapatalk

 

was all Myles idea, i would never advise that

 

#iAmXCracer

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

was all Myles idea, i would never advise that

 

#iAmXCracer

Yeah, cs you have a dropper...