Landis nil; 12; nil;........WTF !!!!!!!!!

[Gift]

Windbreaker,

 

Thanks for all the information. You've really done your homework and to be quite honest it's actually very interesting.

 

Regarding the tests and labs. I've been pondering about the following idea for quite some time.

 

It's easy to label a lab that's got a bone to pick with a certain nationality. Read: French lab vs American riders.

 

I can well believe the Frenchies must be very disgruntled that "their race" has been hi-jacked by foreigners. Since 1985 (Hinault) France has not produced a winner with America taking 11 of the last 21 titles. More than 50 percent.

 

And as it's been suggested it's possible that things can go wrong with (my opinion) a warped lab official leaking the news, mixing up the results etc. Homo Sapiens live by trial and error and unfortunately you do find those individuals that will always try to overturn the apple cart.

 

To get the tests sorted out I think (again my personal opinion) it will essential for all the accredited labs to start working together. I other words once you've taken an urine sample divide it in three holders. A, B and C samples.

 

A gets tested at the local lab, B gets sent of to another one of the labs in the system with the C sample being kept at your local lab for future reference in case of a positive result.

 

The accredited labs all use the same procedure and if two independent labs come up with the same result only then can you pursue the matter by testing the C sample if the athlete wish to do so. If the two lab tests don't have the same result, throw out everything out and concentrate on your next test.

 

Obviously costs will be a factor, but surely if WADA and all the organisations against this evil really want to do something about it, something can be worked out to make it viable.

 

I don't know, maybe that's an option to look at in future.

 

Any other suggestions?

 

[bruce]

Why incur the cost of two tests every time?  Why not split the samples up, send them to three different labs randomly, the one that gets the A sample tests it, if it returns a positive, then the lab that received the B sample must test it to confirm A.  Should both be positive, the athlete then has the choice to get the C sample tested by the third lab.

The only problem I can see here is the adequate transportation of the samples.

[Guest Big H]

Landis gaan in anycase loskom..... te veel foute is alreeds gemaak!!!!!!

[Windbreaker]

Personally' date=' I believe the riders have created a community that is not trusted by the general public and so they are rightly viewed with skepticism.  Until there is some level of transparency they will always be treated as guilty unless they can demonstrate their innocence.  Perhaps if Floyd is innocent, his treatment would be different if he had been open and honest about his knowledge of teammates that were using a variety of drugs.  It is worrying that the three current holders of the Grand Tours (Basso,Landis/Periero,inokourov) are all conspicious in their failure to take a stand on the drugs issue.  That breeds suspicion in the mind of the public.
[/quote']

 

I agree with you whole-heartedly on this.

 

I think that FL has come out against the use of drugs but I might be mistaking statements claiming that he doesn't use drugs as being the same thing - and they are not.

 

Whilst I disagree with what has happened with FL - mainly because the politics behind the scene have corrupted the process already, I do agree with the Operation Puerto thing. It is my understanding that they did a significant amount of investigating, got film footage, got documentation etc. etc. BEFORE they came out with names.

 

I guess that this goes to what Bruce was saying about getting to a point where the balance of probabilities was overwhelming allowing the TdF and team management to take such a tough stance.

 

It is still worrying that a number of the riders named originally have subsequently been cleared. The damage has been done.

 

But in essence I agree totally the right environment must be created "NO DOPING TOLERATED" but that will never happen while the guys who are supposed to be leading the crusade can't maintain the moral high ground.

 

Pound is a politician in disguise, playing politics and needs to go. The French ministry of sport are completely two faced and act when it suits them - if you compare how they handled Virenque vs LA I'm sure you'll agree. (I think it was Virenque). I reserve judgement on McQuaid.

Windbreaker2006-10-07 10:35:26

[Gift]

Windy,

You're breaking new ground here! I never wanted to get involved in the politics of the whole affair, but what you're saying holds water.

 

Bruce might have a point. But also get an airline on board to transport the samples to the next destination. I'm sure aan airline will do it for free once they start getting mileage out if it. Christ, do we have to book a ticket everytime we're sending samples overseas?

 

If that's the case, why bother?

 

 

 

[Windbreaker]

Back from deepest darkest ...

For those interested in FL's defense go to www.box.net

Click on Login and use PublicAccess for the username and password.

Then download the file Floyd Landis SS_final.pdf.

 

It should make very interesting reading for those that have followed this thread. I'm not saying that what is stated is the truth or even whether they do in fact negate the tests - that is for USADA to judge but there are definitely some questions to be answered I would have to agree that the handwritten number in question on page 6 is 995476.

 

Again, for those that reckon that it is nigh impossible for "The Lab" to make mistakes - read it!!!!

Windbreaker2006-10-13 12:25:42

[linnega]

Floyds presentation is, as suspected, all smoke and mirrors.  Half is based on "sloppy" lab work which is only relevant if Landis is actually denying the samples are his.  He has officially stated he does not deny the samples are his.  The other half is based on the rules about all 4 tests having to show out of range results to be valid and then a long story about how this is not the case.  The USADA rules and WADA code in fact only require one test to show out of range.  Perhaps Floyd would have done well to engage a real expert and not a GP that has cycling links like Arnie Baker.

 

[Windbreaker]

Linnega, you amaze me. Smoke & mirrors??

 

He does question that the samples are his!!

 

The defense addresses specific faults in the procedures (including the correct & accurate labelling of samples)

Then it addresses specific problems with the results.

It quotes specific WADA regulations that were contravened.

 

How can that be smoke & mirrors?? What sort of defense would you describe as being not "smoke & mirrors"?

 

On the one hand people complain that he "surrounds himslef with million dollar experts to get him off' and on the other hand people say that his defense experts are "no good".

 

Sounds like some people just want him to be guilty because that fits their perception of the sport at his level!!

[fourbar]

Linnega' date=' you amaze me. Smoke & mirrors??

 

Sounds like some people just want him to be guilty because that fits their perception of the sport at his level!!

[/quote']

 

Exactly my point as well... has-beens, wannbees, nevergonnabees... all pulling as hard as they can to drag him to their level! Hey! if you're good, you're good. At least give them the acknowledgement for getting somewhere!!! And when the attested facts prove his guilt on a balance of probabilities or beyond reasonable doubt, add your gram of whiff...!

Sela!