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Landis nil; 12; nil;........WTF !!!!!!!!!

Guest Big H

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Robert Hunter said on Supercyling last night that Floyd Landis recorded a zero testosterone reading on day 16, on day 17 he recorded a testosterone level of 12 and on day 19 he recorded zero. If this is true not only is Floyd an exeptional Cyclist but he also has a superhuman metabolism that enables him to purge himself in 24 hours of an overdose of testosterone. I also need to add that these tests were done by the same FRENCH (who is suurgat because they do NOT produce race winning cyclists to win their most prestigeous event) who tried to discredit Lance Armstrong with a series of sensationalist and botched tests. Maybe that is why the tests show a testosterone NOT created in an human body....... With this I mean tampered tests!!!!!!. I am also mildly surprised that all the Troll suurtiete on this messageboard elected not to look at this sequence in the events surrounding Landis. Instead they spew forth fire and brimstone and found Landis guilty!!!!!!!!

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Funny that not one of the "I see a doper behind every tree" as well as Basso and Uhlrich supporters messageboard contributors who as I put it normally "spews forth hell and brimstone" did not react to this posting..... scared of being labelled a Suurtiet Troll mmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!

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I don't like any Americans. Winners, no winners, cheaters or no cheaters and especially Trek riders.

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I am not a Yank lover myself..... but you cannot ignore raw talent!!!!! Even if he , or she, rides a Trek.

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Big H I asked the question before as well.

He was tested several times before day 17 and the Saturday and Sunday as well. All negative except day 17.

My question was how can you test positive one day and negative the next day. Then one must look at the testing procedure.

Saw on another website that apparently the control numbers on the A and B samples did not match either. Probably the reason why he were not stripped of the TDF win yet.

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Does anybody know how fast testerone gets worked out of the body? Boonie2006-10-04 04:09:43

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No, one of the doping experts please supply an answer.

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Floyd Landis--Doping Controversy

For those that missed it?I?ve talked to several?Floyd Landis won the 2006 Tour de France, the world?s most prestigious cycling event, overcoming a seemingly insurmountable 8-minute deficit in the final days of the 3-week-long stage race. ?He just proved he has incredible character,? Tour Director Christian Prudhomme gushed, according to Sports Illustrated. ?The performance he had today is something I haven?t seen in 20 years.?

Shortly thereafter, however, Floyd?s magnificent ride was severely jeopardized when a urine sample taken shortly after the comeback-stage 17 tested positive for testosterone; the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone was found to be 11 to 1, well over the 4:1 limit allowed by anti-doping authorities.  ?Scandal Overshadows Landis? Rousing Victory,? the Associated Press headlined. A few days later, The New York Times reported, based on a leak from an ?unnamed person? at the International Cycling Union (UCI) ?with knowledge of the result,? that some of the testosterone in his urine sample was synthetic, indicating that it was from an outside source. That apparently sealed the deal in the eyes of many doping experts.      

Nevertheless, Floyd insists that he did nothing wrong. ?I have never taken any banned substance, including testosterone,? he said in a written statement. ?I was the strongest man at the Tour de France, and that is why I am champion.? It is probably not a good bet that the test results will be overturned, but I do believe that Floyd was the best and strongest rider at the Tour.

If he took testosterone, of course, he made a bad mistake. He was wrong.

Each person will have to make up their own mind about Floyd?s guilt or innocence. I?m inclined to believe Floyd, but I have no way to know for sure.

Here are some things to take into consideration, which aren?t getting much play in the mainstream press.

About Testosterone

First, testosterone has a two-pronged effect: it speeds recovery and helps build muscle mass. For a cyclist one tends to cancel out the other. The last thing a bike racer needs is extra body weight, especially in the upper body, that doesn?t make him go faster or climb better. If you?ll recall, Lance Armstrong was a better rider after he lost weight.

Floyd?s longtime physician Brent Kay, MD, was asked about the benefits of testosterone for a cyclist on CNN?s Larry King Live.

?It would be my opinion that it would make it worse,? he replied. ?I think that?s the crazy thing here. I think everybody really needs to take a step back and look at what we?re talking about. Because testosterone is a bodybuilding steroid that builds mass. It builds mass over long term use of weeks, months and even years and it?s crazy to think a Tour de France professional cyclist would be using testosterone, particularly in the middle of a race.?

That?s another puzzling aspect of the case. Floyd was tested eight times during the Tour, four times before the stage in question, and three times after, including three blood tests. Seven were negative. Only one came back positive, the one on the day of the big comeback.

?Nobody in their right mind would take testosterone only once,? Floyd told reporters; ?it just doesn?t work that way.?

Steven Ungerleider, antidoping expert and author of Faust?s Gold: Inside the East German Doping Machine, agrees: ?It would be totally inappropriate or completely ridiculous for anybody to use [testosterone] at his stage of the game?It would have no benefit whatsoever in a competition like this. It?s the wrong drug of choice.? (The Wall Street Journal, August 12-13, 2006)

Charles Yesalis, professor emeritus at Penn State and a well-know antidoping expert, says: ?It would be like taking a cholesterol-lowering drug while having a heart attack.? (WSJ, August 12-13, 2006)

An Agenda?

The leak is another problem. Someone at the Cycling Union (UCI) leaked the news about exogenous testosterone being found in the test sample to The New York Times--before the result was made available to Landis or his representatives. Floyd had to read it in the press, and react without benefit of all the facts. It made it appear that he was changing his story with each new development. According to an AP report, the drug cops at the U.S. Anti-doping Agency in Colorado Springs ?absolutely won?t talk to the media about any case that is pending.? I guess they play by different rules in France.

We now know that, UCI head Pat McQuaid was the leaker. ?[He] said he had to release mine before the [French anti-doping] lab leaked it,? Landis told reporters.

?This is a situation where I?m forced to defend myself in the media. It would never have happened if UCI and WADA [World Anti-Doping Agency] had followed their own rules,? Landis told reporters. ?There?s some kind of agenda there,? he added. ?I just don't know what it is.?

Asked whether anyone had manipulated the test results, Landis replied, ?I don?t have a theory on that. All I?m saying is that circumstantial evidence points to something other than just clearly enforcing the rules.?

It?s no way to run a railroad, that?s for sure. It does make you wonder what?s going on. Is it possible, as some have suggested, that someone in the evidence chain was tired of Americans winning every year?

Phil Liggett, the distinguished cycling commentator we see every year on OLN?s coverage of the Tour, is skeptical about the tests done on the American, according to South African sports writer Wilhelm de Swardt (Beeld, August 8, 2006). ?The way the tests were handled and the information that was leaked to The New York Times makes me wonder whether everything was done according to the rules,? said Liggett. 

The same French lab hounded Lance Armstrong for years. In May of this year, tests done on a sample of Armstrong?s urine in 1999 by that lab were thrown out after an independent investigation found that the lab ?did not follow a single one? of the required handling techniques. (WSJ, August 12-13, 2006) 

The more I learn about testing for synthetic testosterone in the body, the more I wonder.   

Synthetic Testosterone

As noted earlier, only one of eight samples tested by the French lab was found positive; the samples taken before and after Stage 17 were all negative. The logical question is how long does synthetic testosterone stay in the body? Carl Bialik, The Numbers Guy, explored this question quite extensively in his column on WSJ.com (August 11, 2006).

First, Bialik confirmed through Landis spokesman Michael Henson and cycling union doctor Mario Zorzoli that only the test on July 20 was positive. Tests two days before and two days after were negative.

How long it takes for synthetic testosterone to clear out of the body depends primarily on how it was administered. ?Testosterone typically is injected directly into the muscle, and, depending on the dosage, it generally creates an elevated T/E [testosterone to epitestosterone] ratio for a week to 10 days, according to researchers I spoke with,? the Numbers Guy wrote. ?That makes this form of testosterone usage an unlikely candidate to explain Mr. Landis?s positive test?assuming the tests were conducted properly?his elevated ratio would have shown up in one of his other tests.?

Plus, as we pointed out above, testosterone doesn?t work that fast. ?It takes at least a week to have a physiological effect,? Dr. Simon Davis, technical director for Mass Spec Solutions Ltd, maker of the testing devices, told The Numbers Guy.

The other ways to take testosterone are by mouth or apply it to the skin with a gel, cream or patch. Unless we assume that Floyd and his handlers were stupid or uninformed, those methods also seem inconsistent with the test result that threatens his career.

These forms of administration do work faster and clear out of the system sooner. Dr. Mario Thevis, professor for preventive doping research at German Sport University, told Bialik in an email, ?Depending on the dosage, T/E ratios could return to normal after several hours.?

The problem is that they provide little, if any, benefit. ?These provide a very small amount of testosterone, and certainly would not improve performance at any significant level,? Simon Davis, who you'll remember works for the company that makes the testing devices, told Bialik.

That brings us back to the credibility of the French lab and the accuracy of the tests. 

Carl Bialik found that the French lab has a generally good reputation. German Professor Thevis told him the lab ?has fulfilled the accreditation requirement for sport drug testing for more than 15 years.?

There have been some stumbles over the years, however. We already mentioned the overturning of Lance Armstrong?s urine test because of defects in the lab?s handling procedures. Other problems have been reported as well. ?In 1998, cyclist Paola Pezzo was cleared of a positive test by [the French lab], in part because of flaws in the lab?s testing procedures,? Bialik wrote.

The test used to detect synthetic testosterone, isotope ratio mass spectrometry, is considered reliable. ?There have been a lot of studies showing that differentiation [between natural and synthetic testosterone based on carbon type] is absolutely reliable and reproducible,? UCI Dr. Zorzoli told Bialik. (8-2-06)

The test is not foolproof, however. ?It?s a very complex test that requires very skilled people and is easy to mess up,? Dr. Richard Hellman, president-elect of the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists, told The Numbers Guy. Dr. Davis, technical director for the company that makes the machines that do the testing, agrees: ?Quite regularly there are errors in the isotope tests,? Davis told Bialik. ?It?s a very difficult analytical technique.?

No evidence of tampering with the test sample has been uncovered. But it would certainly be possible to spike the sample, says Dr. Davis: ?If you did an analysis on testosterone, you wouldn?t be able to distinguish between testosterone injected straight into the sample, or coming out through urine.?

So, where does that leave us? I would say, in doubt. It?s certainly not time to declare Floyd Landis guilty without a hearing. Yet, a substantial portion of the media seems inclined to rush to judgment, especially sports commentators.

Phil Liggett, arguably the most widely recognized cycling commentator in the world, has not joined the media horde. According to the article in the South African online 24-hour news service Beeld referred to earlier, Liggett has pointed out that the legal team representing Landis has never lost a case in which an athlete was accused of having testosterone levels that were too high.

You?d never know it from reading your daily newspaper or watching the nightly news.

Rush to Judgment

A local sports reporter/commentator I generally respect wrote, ?Maybe it?s a frame-up perpetuated by the same folks who tried for so long to discredit Lance Armstrong.? After barely pausing for breath, he wrote in the next paragraph. ?But, no I don?t think so. Do you?? And that was when the ink was barely dry on the first reports of a positive test result, before the ?B? sample results or the information on synthetic testosterone were known.

About the same time, while the story was still unfolding, AP writer Jim Litke was out with a very negative report, the worst I?ve seen. Among other things, he wrote, ?The evidence so far says he?d better have a good lawyer. ?Make that a Great one.? Referring to Floyd?s explanations at that point, he wrote mockingly: ?At least he didn?t say the dog ate his homework.? (July 28, 2006) (See below about the alcohol defense.)

I don?t like the tone of that; sounds like the case is essentially closed, at least in his mind. I know that lots of sports writers make their bones by being opinionated and having a big mouth, but I think some restraint is called for when an athlete?s life and career are on the line.

?I don?t think he has much chance at all to try to prove his innocence,? three-time Tour winner Greg LeMond told a reporter by phone. That may be true, but it?s hardly constructive, especially when the appeal process hasn?t even begun. In fact, as of this writing, Floyd has yet to be charged by the U.S. Anti-doping Agency. Until then he is still the official winner of the Tour de France.

Even though these comments may turn out to be correct, I find them disturbing. Beyond the presumption of guilt, they feed into the pessimistic view that most successful people got where they are by cheating. Jim Litke, in the same column quoted above, referring to Floyd?s thrilling comeback, added this gloomy commentary: ?For almost a week, that ride?made people believe there was no limit on how far hard work, toughness and willingness to sacrifice could carry a champion. Now it?s just one more reason to be skeptical about the next great performance.?

I believe that was overly negative, at least early in the news cycle when it was written?and generally misguided. People who work hard and follow the rules almost always come out ahead in the long run. Optimistic people who help themselves do better in just about everything. (See ?The New Positive Psychology? and ?Owners and Victims? in our Psychology and Motivation category.)

One thing is clear. No one should question Landis? work ethic. Listen to his friend and doctor Brent Kay again: ?Floyd is about as tough as they come. Having ridden a bike with him on a fairly regular basis in the last four years, I?ve seen that first hand. I?ve seen his training data. I?ve seen how hard he trains. His training is legendary in the cycling area. This performance he had [on] this big stage?was not unexpected. He has training data that compares to what he did that day and the big thing with that performance is that he is the only one that would do that on the first hill, the first of five hills. You watched the other leaders there with him, they had the opportunity [to do the same thing], and said no.?

Floyd?s Alcohol Defense

We can?t close without a few words about the alcohol defense which the press has had so much fun denigrating. The Numbers Guy covered that too, in his August 2  column. It?s not a joke.

Depressed about bonking on Stage 16, Floyd Landis downed two beers and ?at least? four shots of Jack Daniels. Probably not the best idea ever, but everyone would most likely agree that it?s understandable. Guess what? Several studies (five, according to Dr. Kay) have shown that alcohol can substantially raise the level of testosterone in the body. Here are the details, as uncovered by Carl Bialik?s excellent reporting.

The first study was done two decades ago by researchers in the department of clinical chemistry at Huddinge Hospital in Sweden. It was a small study involving four subjects. They had about 10 alcoholic drinks over six hours, which was found to elevate their T/E ratio ?by a factor of 10% to 50%.? The study was published in the journal Clinical Chemistry. ?Our interest here was just to demonstrate that we would see an effect,? co-author and now a professor of clinical chemistry at Karolinska University Hospital in Stockholm Ingemar Bjorkhem, told Bialik. ? We expected to see an effect.?

Bialik found that a handful of other studies have confirmed the effect. The studies, however, are small and the size of the rise in T/E ratio varies widely. A 1996 study by researchers at the German Sports University found an average increase in T/E ratio of ?300% to 400% among six female volunteers and an average of 50% to 100% among five males.? The men?s results ranged from a decrease of 40% to an increase of 300%.

A 2001 review of literature by Simon Davis of Mass Spec Solutions, who was then doing his doctoral work at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in Berkeley, California, ?found alcohol-induced increases in the T/E ratio ranging from 30% to 277%.? The review was done in connection with a pending doping case and was not peer-reviewed. It was recently published online (without permission from Dr. Davis) and was cited by Bloomberg.

?The information is suggestive, but it?s not certain,? Richard Hellman, president-elect of the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists, told Bialik.

?Doctors and drug-testing specialists say the possibility that alcohol may profoundly affect the T/E ratio is one of several drawbacks with the test that?s caused Mr. Landis so much trouble,? Carl Bialik wrote.

The cyclist union?s Dr Zorzoli counters: ?If the case is on the evidence of exogenous testosterone, alcohol intake doesn?t create exogenous testosterone in the body.? Maybe not, but it could explain the elevated T/E level. We?ve already discussed the problems with the finding of synthetic testosterone.

I don't know the standard of proof required in doping cases, but surely the burden is on the charging authority. it's not up to Landis to prove his innocence beyond a reasonable doubt.

Referring to the alcohol effect and other problems with the testing, Endocrinologist Richard Hellman, told Bialik, ?If someone?s career is hanging in the balance, you don?t want to say, ?There?s 85% chance the test is right.? ?  

Biggest Story Still to Come

I feel bad for Floyd. No matter what happens, I hope he can get his mind right and focus on rehabbing his hip without pressure. As most readers know by now, he?s been riding on a damaged hip for several years and needs a replacement. If news reports are correct, the surgery may have been done by the time this article is posted.

It would be an even bigger story for Landis to come back and win again--on a new hip. I?d love that.

Go Floyd!

Boonie2006-10-04 04:23:20
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Testosterone is obviously produced naturally in the body, so a ZERO level test result is odd -  however low male testosterone levels are just as suspect as high ones - I am not clued up on the Landis case and his levels at the time so I cant comment on the levels recorded.


Testosterone never really "gets worked out" of the body, it is just used up in the normal metabolic functions and is replenished constantly.


However my understanding of the case is that not only was the level high, but "synthetic" testosterone was also present - this is obviously never going to be produced by the body and so the presumption is, it was introduced from an external source - a high level may be explained away in exceptional cases - but synthetic testosterone - never.!

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if he is dirty I'm sure there's more to it than just testosterone - wish they'd just com clean to waht they really are taking......these guys aren't just gonna tak soemthing that does appear on a dope test especially when they know they will get tested if they win the stage.....


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Funny that not one of the "I see a doper behind every tree" as well as Basso and Uhlrich supporters messageboard contributors who as I put it normally "spews forth hell and brimstone" did not react to this posting..... scared of being labelled a Suurtiet Troll mmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!


Naaaaa - I LOVE being a Troll!!! It would SEEM (I say seem because you do not state your position clearly), you are also quite happy to assume that Ullrich & Basso are guilty even though neither of them have tested positive or is it one rule for the riders you support and a different rule for the others?



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Sorry, H - I've been to busy to post comments recently.  Not sure what you are trying to get at.  Seems that RH is not too clued up (perhaps not too bright?).  You rightly pointed out that it is impossible to have 0 levels of testosterone.  Perhaps Landis forgot to use his masking agent that messes with the test, or his doctor gave him a placebo.  More likely than the WADA lab messing up.

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