Helmet Safety Poll

[Fruity]

Was this over confidence because you felt invincible from wearing a helmet?

It could have been that, but I think it was more of a thrill from riding a new bike with not much bike skills.

[Paul Ruinaard]

My 2 cents worth:

 

The scenario that helmets increase crashes is pretty ludicrous.

 

For example, when in your riding have you in your mind decided to push harder on a ride or been more reckless on a track because you have partial cover of your head?

 

The logic does not compute. It still kills you when you smash your cranium open, even if a small crack or a lesser crack than without the helmet and it still hurts and/or hospitalizes you when you crash.

 

I have raced plenty things and have never thought clearly that it's worth taking extra risks as i have safety gear on. No right minded driver or rider thinks like this. Its just not in the mindset of someone who is fast. You can break equipment as well, and if it isnt the fact you fell off that loses you the race, it will be that your vehicle is disabled and cant continue. 

 

Bikes don't have helmets on wheels and derailleurs BTW....

 

FFS - you are still wearing Lycra on most cycling excursions. Might as well be naked.. But if you wear thick DH gear you still hurt.

 

And on a DH track where you have all the gear on you still need the ability to ride the bike.

 

Never in any literature I have ever read on racing has there been a line that said "I saw the barriers looked soft/the rollbar looked strong/I had a full face on, so i was willing to crash and burn to get an extra second or two advantage".

 

It dont happen.

 

Fast people are incredibly calculating of risks - and they need to be at the finish line to win. It doesn't help if the crash protection gear stops you from bursting - you dont win the race.

[Allrounder]

Most of you know my story.  But here it goes again.

 

OTB coming down Hellshoogte pass. Head and shoulder first points of impact. 

 

4 broken ribs, broken collarbone, broken glenoid fossa, broken scapula. 

 

Head injuries: none. not even a headache. 

 

 

 

So...... Helmet or nothing. 

[Fat Boab]

Based on this thread content and the poll, what conclusions do you guys draw?

 

Does the crash protection benefits one enjoys when wearing a helmet outweigh the increase in crashes caused by wearing helmets?

 

 

At best we'll all probably only be able to conclude with our own biased view. After all we are all singular unreliable observers (we have our own view based on personal, possibly painful experiences, which compels us to believe we're 'right'!).

 

I have to say the concepts of risk compensation and risk homeostasis, highlighted by others, have given food for thought. If as these concepts suggest, that the risk, of presumably serious hospitalised injury, that I sub-consciously expose myself to is the same, helmeted or not, then I'll choose to continue to wear a helmet to continue to alleviate the minor injuries, not requiring hospitalisation....

[Allrounder]

here is a pic of the helmet in question. 

[Fat Boab]

My 2 cents worth:

 

The scenario that helmets increase crashes is pretty ludicrous.

 

For example, when in your riding have you in your mind decided to push harder on a ride or been more reckless on a track because you have partial cover of your head?

 

The logic does not compute. It still kills you when you smash your cranium open, even if a small crack or a lesser crack than without the helmet and it still hurts and/or hospitalizes you when you crash.

 

I have raced plenty things and have never thought clearly that it's worth taking extra risks as i have safety gear on. No right minded driver or rider thinks like this. Its just not in the mindset of someone who is fast. You can break equipment as well, and if it isnt the fact you fell off that loses you the race, it will be that your vehicle is disabled and cant continue. 

 

Bikes don't have helmets on wheels and derailleurs BTW....

 

FFS - you are still wearing Lycra on most cycling excursions. Might as well be naked.. But if you wear thick DH gear you still hurt.

 

And on a DH track where you have all the gear on you still need the ability to ride the bike.

 

Never in any literature I have ever read on racing has there been a line that said "I saw the barriers looked soft/the rollbar looked strong/I had a full face on, so i was willing to crash and burn to get an extra second or two advantage".

 

It dont happen.

 

Fast people are incredibly calculating of risks - and they need to be at the finish line to win. It doesn't help if the crash protection gear stops you from bursting - you dont win the race.

 

It's less to do with a conscious decision to increase ones risk factor, it's a sub-conscious decision, purportedly. Check out wiki on 'risk compensation'...

[Patchelicious]

It's less to do with a conscious decision to increase ones risk factor, it's a sub-conscious decision, purportedly. Check out wiki on 'risk compensation'...

I'm not disputing that this exists. I'm asking if the increase is significant enough to warrant that it forms part of your desicion when deciding to to wear a helmet or not.

[Robbie Stewart]

I had a road crash a while ago near the finish.  took a corner too quickly and landed on my side hitting my head on the tar.  Afterwards I was so nauseous for about an hour,  then felt so sleepy.  I  had a headache for three days afterwards.  Without a helmet I would surely have fewer brain cells than what I have now.

 

ALWAYS WEAR A HELMET 

 

Those are all signs of very bad concussion. I had a very bad crash last year, breaking arms etc. Doc said my arms saved my life, my helmet saved me from being vegetative.

 

In the last three crashes I had the following:

 

1. OTB onto tar. Stood up and realized I smacked my head on the tar, after I passed out into a bed of flowers planted beside the road. Would have been much worse without a helmet. - this was my first experience with a CT scan.

 

2. Landed wrong after a jump and remembered I forgot to wear a lid. hurt my neck trying to keep the head from banging the rocks. - This also makes me think that wearing a helmet does possibly convey a false sense of security. But false or not, I will not try this again.

 

3. headbutted a planet, mostly with my face, which led to the doctors comments above. 

[Fat Boab]

I'm not disputing that this exists. I'm asking if the increase is significant enough to warrant that it forms part of your desicion when deciding to to wear a helmet or not.

 

It's a subjective assessment and decision because we can't, as unreliable observers, or even lay-people objectively compute, and respond to the difference in risk factors between being helmeted or not. (One might as well debate whether Froomie is a doper....  )  

[Robbie Stewart]

This debate of assesing risk wheter a helmet contributes to risky behavior becomes a moot point in light of the following:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/jul/25/felipe-massa-fernando-alonso-hungarian

 

Felipe Massa was airlifted to a Budapest hospital with a skull fracture as the result of an injury received during qualifying for today's Hungarian grand prix. The Brazilian was knocked unconscious when a spring, which had become detached from the rear suspension of Rubens Barrichello's Brawn, struck Massa on the head as he reached 175mph on one of the fastest sections of the Hungaroring.

The Ferrari cut the inside of the left-hand bend that followed soon after, ran straight across a run-off area and embedded itself in a quadruple-layer tyre barrier. The qualifying session was stopped as Massa was removed to the track's medical centre and stabilised before being flown to hospital, where he successfully underwent emergency surgery. The hospital released a statement last night saying Massa's condition is serious but stable, adding that surgeons expect him to be awoken this morning after being kept sedated on a respirator overnight.

The spring, weighing around 700 grammes, had somehow penetrated the top of his visor and injured Massa above the left eye, perilously close to the cornea.  

 

(my guess is that if he did not have a helmet, the spring would have penetrated his skull...)

 

The accident came six days after 18-year-old Henry Surtees died of injuries received when he was struck on the head by an errant wheel in another freak accident during a Formula Two race at Brands Hatch.

[Patchelicious]

It's a subjective assessment and decision because we can't, as unreliable observers, or even lay-people objectively compute, and respond to the difference in risk factors between being helmeted or not. (One might as well debate whether Froomie is a doper.... )

In that case, we then need to disregard the data (both for and against) that aspect.

[Fat Boab]

In that case, we then need to disregard the data (both for and against) that aspect.

 

Unless the data was gathered independently and objectively, I'd agree.

 

But what your poll, as an example, does indicate successfully, is people's perception of risk and the role helmets would play. That's fascinating...

[IceCreamMan]

It's a subjective assessment and decision because we can't, as unreliable observers, or even lay-people objectively compute, and respond to the difference in risk factors between being helmeted or not. (One might as well debate whether Froomie is a doper....  )  

The phenomenon is well documented, I am surprised at the misunderstanding of it though.

 

Another factor not taken into account in the original thread is the following. A number of brain related injuries are secondary related injuries and this relates to the brain rolling around your head. Typical symptoms are concussion etc. Due to the size of helmets its possible that they cause some of these injuries too as what would previously have been a near miss is now a hit. Helmets are also generally constructed to prevent a physical injury but may be less so to prevent Traumatic brain injury.

 

http://www.traumaticbraininjury.net/helmets-prevent-physical-injuries-but-do-little-for-tbi/

 

A lil study of football...game safer without helmets.

 

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/nfl-concussions-football-helmets-risk-taking-behavior-brain-injury-helmetless-tackling-technique-lawsuit/15srtbuzodfbk10tkmhxm8ayr7

 

http://www.wehoville.com/2013/02/18/do-pads-and-helmets-increase-rather-than-prevent-football-injuries/

 

After the other thread I went and looked at other areas where helmets were introduced. Helmets in motorcycling resulted in some areas an increase in TBI related injuries and deaths due to the Risk compensation phenomenon. I went and analysed American football and again the same results are evident. While helmets are introduced to reduce injuries (an in some cases they potentially can and do) they lead to an increase in injuries due to this risk homeostatis.

 

An incredibly interesting field, one which needs way more analysis and research. I will reiterate what I said on the other thread, do not place any faith in that flimsy piece of plastic, rather put more faith in acquiring knowledge.

 

an no, pointless going around in circles.... fact of the matter is , helmets may protect some but undoubtably result in other accidents and injuries. Focussing solely on the accident itself is a mistake.

[IceCreamMan]

This debate of assesing risk wheter a helmet contributes to risky behavior becomes a moot point in light of the following:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/jul/25/felipe-massa-fernando-alonso-hungarian

 

Felipe Massa was airlifted to a Budapest hospital with a skull fracture as the result of an injury received during qualifying for today's Hungarian grand prix. The Brazilian was knocked unconscious when a spring, which had become detached from the rear suspension of Rubens Barrichello's Brawn, struck Massa on the head as he reached 175mph on one of the fastest sections of the Hungaroring.

The Ferrari cut the inside of the left-hand bend that followed soon after, ran straight across a run-off area and embedded itself in a quadruple-layer tyre barrier. The qualifying session was stopped as Massa was removed to the track's medical centre and stabilised before being flown to hospital, where he successfully underwent emergency surgery. The hospital released a statement last night saying Massa's condition is serious but stable, adding that surgeons expect him to be awoken this morning after being kept sedated on a respirator overnight.

The spring, weighing around 700 grammes, had somehow penetrated the top of his visor and injured Massa above the left eye, perilously close to the cornea.  

 

(my guess is that if he did not have a helmet, the spring would have penetrated his skull...)

 

The accident came six days after 18-year-old Henry Surtees died of injuries received when he was struck on the head by an errant wheel in another freak accident during a Formula Two race at Brands Hatch.

without a doubt in Massa's case if he was not wearing a helmet he would of been dead. No one can dispute that and no one will.

[IceCreamMan]

Unless the data was gathered independently and objectively, I'd agree.

 

But what your poll, as an example, does indicate successfully, is people's perception of risk and the role helmets would play. That's fascinating...

I would call it frightening

[Eldron]

The poll is worded badly - the second question won't lead to credible data. Nobody will ever know if wearing a helmet made them feel safer which conclusively led to an accident.

 

I do believe helmets make you braver and increase the risk of crashing. Gloves too - I certainly have ridden with a much bigger safety margin the few times I've forgotten my gloves.

 

One things is not disputable:

Helmets physically make you safer.

 

Mentally is debatable of course.

 

Try this olde chestnut on for size. If we put a HUGE steel spike on the steering wheel pointed straight at the drivers heart would accidents increase, decrease or stay the same.... Or decrease for a while then head back to the same? Hmmmm.