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Bicycle licence fees


Mojoman

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Posted

No mode of transport gives anybody the right to act like a superior being. It doesn't matter if you are in a car, on a bicycle, on a motorbike or a pedestrian, be a considerate human being its not that hard!

 

We are all members of the same society, either you contribute to it with positive actions and make it better, or you take away from it by acting like an idiot. 

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Posted

Unfortunately there is no effective approach that does not involve changes to law and draconian punishment.

 

Motorists will only change their behaviour when there is a risk to their liberty if they are involved in an accident with a cyclist. Cyclists will not change their behaviour in non life threatening law breaking while they are a vulnerable user group.

 

It is well documented that driver liability is the single biggest encourager of drivers paying more attention to cyclists. Even segregated pathways have not been as effective as there will always be a time the cycle path has to cross the motorists path.

 

Driver liability is where, in the event of an accident, the motorist is assumed liable and has to prove it was the cyclists fault. In SA law the onus is on the state to prove the driver was at fault. Much harder to do.

So until laws get passed that puts greater liability on the drivers, what do you suggest we do to improve driver/cyclist behavior and relations?

Posted

Cyclists insisting that motorist improve their behavior first and motorist insisting that cyclist improve their behavior first is not really an effective approach.

 

An eye for an eye, and soon we're all blind...

Posted

This cow is being milked dry however I'm always hopeful we can change the fossilized attitudes of the individual, as I truly believe an individual make up a community, so the singular does posses the ability to make a difference albeit in it's sphere of influence (surrounding). That's where it all start.

 

When we as individual cyclists improve our interaction with the rest of the road user fraternity by following the rules applicable to all road users, we have a far more solid foundation to argue for greater recognition to our rights to co-exist.

 

We (generalisation I know) continue to break the law and disregard the rules applicable to all. The solution to good road etiquette lies in the improvement of the mannerism of the individual multiplied tenfold. It all start with "me", that then becomes the "us" so the "we" can earn our deserved respect as road users.

 

While we insist the only way to resolve this issue is to ride armed to the teeth with knives, (ok we already have forks which have been used on the offence  :eek: ), guns, pepper spray, bazookas and the like, we will continue this argument ten years hence.

Posted

So until laws get passed that puts greater liability on the drivers, what do you suggest we do to improve driver/cyclist behavior and relations?

Patch, I think you know where I stand on this.  As individuals it is futile trying to take on motorists.

 

All we can do is lobby.  There are 2 bodies in cycling that can help, CSA and PPA. In my view neither do enough in this space.  There are a few individuals and groups such as Bicycle Safety that are in this space but there is little in way of a co-ordinated strategy lobbying for liability laws. 

 

I am happy to assist in setting up cyclist lobby group bringing together all those who have the desire to see change on a national level that will encourage more people to commute by bike or ride bikes for recreation.

 

And I firmly believe that without liability laws nothing will ever change in this country.

 

Not a single motorist has been prosecuted in Western Cape since the 1m law was passed.

Posted
Snip

You make good points. However they are when you are on your bicycle.

 

Good driving and respect for the space of cyclists when you are in your vehicle is equally, if not more, effective in changing the mannerisms of those motorists around you.

Posted

So until laws get passed that puts greater liability on the drivers, what do you suggest we do to improve driver/cyclist behavior and relations?

 

I think both you and carbon have valid points.

 

The difference here is that there isn't a law saying I'm not allowed to use my phone while riding my bike. There are however law's of it while in a car.

The same applies to a seat belt that has to be worn by every person in the vehicle according to law. The basic rules of driving a car are not being adhered to taking cyclists out of the equation in 90% of the cases and when a cyclist is hit every possible excuse in the book will be used to to blame the cyclist regardless of his own lawlessness.

 

We as cyclist can pledge to do our part to be as humble as possible on the road to try and stay as close to the curb as possible and have lights and blinkers and reflective clothing and all. It wont change the vehicles perspective.

 

Tuesday night I was riding single file with a friend (him behind me) and we were in the Yellow lane and that didn't stop a truck from nearly clipping my handle bars. My friend thought I was dead as it looked like the truck was going over me.

 

The fact of the matter is no matter where we ride or how we do it some idiot in a vehicle is going to drive over a cyclist and claim we shouldn't have been there. 

 

Case and point here. No matter where we are we are wrong.

Posted

The difference here is that there isn't a law saying I'm not allowed to use my phone while riding my bike. There are however law's of it while in a car.

Actually there is. You are in charge of a vehicle as defined in the Road Traffic Act and therefore fall under it's laws. SO the same law applies to both you and a driver.

Posted

Patch, I think you know where I stand on this.  As individuals it is futile trying to take on motorists.

 

All we can do is lobby.  There are 2 bodies in cycling that can help, CSA and PPA. In my view neither do enough in this space.  There are a few individuals and groups such as Bicycle Safety that are in this space but there is little in way of a co-ordinated strategy lobbying for liability laws. 

 

I am happy to assist in setting up cyclist lobby group bringing together all those who have the desire to see change on a national level that will encourage more people to commute by bike or ride bikes for recreation.

 

And I firmly believe that without liability laws nothing will ever change in this country.

 

Not a single motorist has been prosecuted in Western Cape since the 1m law was passed.

I agree with you, and you know that I will back and support a lobby group.

 

Should we not ALSO try and improve cyclist/motorist relations at the same time.

 

(Lobby group + Better cyclist behavior) > (Lobby Group - Bad cyclist behavior) 

 

There is not a silver bullet solution. The problem needs to be addressed from a multi pronged approach. Lobby groups, improved community self control, Stay Wider of the Rider type campaigns, educating all road users etc etc ALL need to be done.

 

We should not put all money on 28 black and spin the wheel. We need to hedge.

 

Will changing the law to put more liability on motorist be the most effective change, yes it probably will. I back that 110%.

 

Is that the quickest and easiest thing to do? Maybe not, is it likely to happen soon? I am not sure. BUT you can, this afternoon, as an individual go out on a ride and behave in a positive manner and also make a change. The change will not be as big, but its an easy one to make.

 

High volume, low impact changes, + high low volume high impact changes is better than just the one.

Posted

*snip

 

We as cyclist can pledge to do our part to be as humble considerate as possible on the road to try and stay as close to the curb as possible and have lights and blinkers and reflective clothing and all. It wont change ALL the vehicles perspective, ​but definitely some.

 

 

The fact of the matter is no matter where we ride or how we do it some idiot in a vehicle is going to drive over a cyclist and claim we shouldn't have been there. - ​Of course, but that will be case regardless of laws. There will ALWAYS be an idiot.

 

Some minor alterations :)

Posted

I didn't make the effort to read all 122 comments, so forgive me if this has been said before.

 

The majority of motorists arent cyclists, thus they do not understand what it is like to be cycling on South African roads. All they see are cyclists riding three abreast and who do not stop at red lights.

 

It is up to us to prove to motorists that we deserve our place on the road. How do we do this?

Keep left, stay single file, OBEY EVERY LAW OF THE ROAD - even an easy left on a red light (this one might be the most difficult), and finally k*k the other riders out who are not obeying the rules of the road. He might not agree with you, he might call you some lovely names, but tonight when he gets home and tells his wife how rude this other cyclist was to him he might even realise that he was wrong. And that is all it takes.

Posted

I didn't make the effort to read all 122 comments, so forgive me if this has been said before.

 

The majority of motorists arent cyclists, thus they do not understand what it is like to be cycling on South African roads. All they see are cyclists riding three abreast and who do not stop at red lights.

 

It is up to us to prove to motorists that we deserve our place on the road. How do we do this?

Keep left, stay single file, OBEY EVERY LAW OF THE ROAD - even an easy left on a red light (this one might be the most difficult), and finally k*k the other riders out who are not obeying the rules of the road. He might not agree with you, he might call you some lovely names, but tonight when he gets home and tells his wife how rude this other cyclist was to him he might even realise that he was wrong. And that is all it takes.

The problem is that motorist think we do not belong on the road.

 

They also don't understand how far left  we should ride, they think we have to be within 5cm from the edge off the road. They only read the part that says we should ride on the left, and not the part saying "as far left as practically possible" which can be 2m from the left due to potholes etc.

 

CSA and PPA should be spending money to educate the motorist rather than just please for "wider of the rider"

 

 

They should explain the law better and bring focus to that cyclist HAVE to riding on the road not next to it etc.

Posted

Actually there is. You are in charge of a vehicle as defined in the Road Traffic Act and therefore fall under it's laws. SO the same law applies to both you and a driver.

 

Are you sure about that carbon?

 

Cycles aren't classified under the same laws as it is not propelled by a motor.Vehicle classifications for cycling is the same a jogging and walking.

 

When looking at the "vehicle" classifications the 1st classification is Class 1 that's a Motorcycle. I am not arguing. I am asking cause it it seems highly unlikely.

 

figurec-1.jpg

 

Edited.

 

Ok so if a cycle is classified as a vehicle and should adhere to all rules as afforded under law as a motor vehicle then should you not be able to use the road as any other vehicle should and be afforded to be passed "BY CHANGING LANES" as you would any other vehicle once it is "SAFE" to do so ?

Posted

All of us can refer to personal experience regarding driver negligence and how this directly or indirectly attributed to a accident, near accident, death etc. This will always happen as Patch referred to previously.

 

The problem is many of use this to justify our shatty riding. That is the part WE can change. It is a choice we make every time we behave lawlessly and drivers, rightfully or wrongfully, will lump us all in the same group and lose respect for ALL of us.

 

I as a part of WE have the power to make a difference and I should take responsibility and make the change. It's in my power.

Posted

Are you sure about that carbon?

 

Cycles aren't classified under the same laws as it is not propelled by a motor.Vehicle classifications for cycling is the same a jogging and walking.

 

When looking at the "vehicle" classifications the 1st classification is Class 1 that's a Motorcycle. I am not arguing. I am asking cause it it seems highly unlikely.

But I'm pretty certain a judge can find you negligent or partially at the very least to blame if found to ride with such device.

Posted

 

I take a completely different view. Cyclists should stick together on this issue and not try embarrass the genre. And give fuel to the motorists that we are a bunch of law ignoring hooligans. Same reason one greets another cyclist when passing on the road or trial.

 

 

I disagree, motorists think we are a bunch of law ignoring hooligans because often we are, not because we don't stick together. Changing our behaviour would be far more effective in changing perceptions.

 

 

 

I say this particularly as it's my risk when I choose not to stop at a clear stop or my favourite type of red light. It does not affect a motorist at all. Other than in their mind.

 

 

This is exactly why I stick to traffic rules even when its "safe" for me to break them, it's not because I'm some sucker for rules but selfishly & hypocritically I want to be seen obeying the rules. A motorist seeing a cyclist approaching a red probably expect him to break the rule 50% of the time(?) If say 4 of the next 5 he sees make the effort to stop at the red light he might feel a bit more positive  about cyclists and act more considerate in my vicinity next time he passes me.

 

Certainly a fairly weak way to try and influence motorists but it is the only way I have. So in my mind it is not only your risk if you cross a red light in full sight of a motorist when he now behave more antagonistic towards me as a fellow cyclist,

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