cleats for downhill?

[T-Bob]

I used to run the old DX pedals clipless and they are awesome. I've also got a pair of those Greg Minnar 5.10 that can run cleats and not. I picked them up the other day and jeeeeeez those things are like a KG and a half each! Totally forgot what they were like.

Was tempted to slip on my Giro Privateers which are light and still a pretty sturdy shoe but not hikable and deffo not #enduro or DH. I tend to use them for more pedally loops.

Edited May 16, 2017 by hellocolour

[Jurgens Smit]

I'm sorry, but I've never felt myself pulling on the pedals when you're riding a steep incline. You're always powering down with the one leg and the other leg simply rotates in-sync.

 

I don't entirely agree with all the above arguments, but your leg doesn't just float upwards. When you're out of saddle and racing up a climb you do push and pull (using quads and hamstrings) you may not realize it but it definitely happens. 

[popcorn_skollie]

You know ****s about to get real when someone posts a graph...

[Jurgens Smit]

Not entirely scientific, but this is what a lab test will look like.

What you see next will blow your mind

 

 

 

 

[cdevil]

You know ****s about to get real when someone posts a graph...

 

Yeah, and you know its BS when someone makes claims like this without anything to back it up:

 

Clipless pedals are hugely more efficient than flats on uphils AND where pedalling is required for a human machine.

[Odinson]

I don't entirely agree with all the above arguments, but your leg doesn't just float upwards. When you're out of saddle and racing up a climb you do push and pull (using quads and hamstrings) you may not realize it but it definitely happens. 

 

Conceded.

 

However, if you're in that riding position, the non-leading foot isn't just flailing around on the flat pedal; if you use proper technique, you can still work the non-leading foot into assisting in the power output.

[worriesnot]

I don't entirely agree with all the above arguments, but your leg doesn't just float upwards. When you're out of saddle and racing up a climb you do push and pull (using quads and hamstrings) you may not realize it but it definitely happens. 

Agreed.

I also didn't completely buy the whole pull effect until one day I went up a short steep incline on flats - amper my mielie afgeval... my feet just flew off the pedals coming back round, which suggests I do pull somewhat when "cleated-in" / "clipped-in" (whatever the correct terminology is).

[Jakes153]

Mongooser... i am not sure if you are on a Mongoose or not. It could be 3 things if you like your flats.

 

1. Running normal takkies and not quite grippy pedals:

Look into a set of 5.10 shoes. Also look at pedals with threaded/slightly longer pins. Get thin concave pedals and all of the above. Thats pretty much as grippy as it will get.

2. It could be technique. Maybe get some advice from another local DHer. Let them follow you down a trail and tell you what you can improve on.

3. A Mongoose Booter: Not dissing bikes here at all, but the floating BB/crank on a Booter causes the crank/pedals to move back and forth under compressions. So your pins in the pedals never quite settle into the grip of the shoe. Even Pottie swopped from flats to clips when he moved from Cannondale to Mongoose back in 2007/8. He grated away a set of 5.10 Impact lows in a bit more than a month.

[Jurgens Smit]

Yeah, and you know its BS when someone makes claims like this without anything to back it up:

 

He's not entirely wrong, it's just that the sports science community don't give 2 ****s on what is more efficient so not many tests have been done. None of the studies you supplied directly link to flats vs clips, but rather on where the most power is produced and then you(the reader) make your own assumptions.

 

Yes flats could be more efficient because you probably aren't recruiting as many muscles as you would be with clipless**, thus you have a potentially higher power output with clips than with flats and obviously more energy expended.  

 

 

**Unless your technique is absolutely perfect with flats.

[Eddy Gordo]

aaagh, just ride the bike and the pedals with cleats or not. Whatever makes you comfy and happy

 

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Mongooser... i am not sure if you are on a Mongoose or not. It could be 3 things if you like your flats.

 

1. Running normal takkies and not quite grippy pedals:

Look into a set of 5.10 shoes. Also look at pedals with threaded/slightly longer pins. Get thin concave pedals and all of the above. Thats pretty much as grippy as it will get.

2. It could be technique. Maybe get some advice from another local DHer. Let them follow you down a trail and tell you what you can improve on.

3. A Mongoose Booter: Not dissing bikes here at all, but the floating BB/crank on a Booter causes the crank/pedals to move back and forth under compressions. So your pins in the pedals never quite settle into the grip of the shoe. Even Pottie swopped from flats to clips when he moved from Cannondale to Mongoose back in 2007/8. He grated away a set of 5.10 Impact lows in a bit more than a month.

He's on a Canyon and Morewood. 

[stefmeister]

Agreed.

I also didn't completely buy the whole pull effect until one day I went up a short steep incline on flats - amper my mielie afgeval... my feet just flew off the pedals coming back round, which suggests I do pull somewhat when "cleated-in" / "clipped-in" (whatever the correct terminology is).

It's all about technique.

Also experienced this with a climb where the last bit has a very steep and slippery lip. Even riding with cleats was tricky, but now I got the hang of it, and it's about timing, body positioning and pedaling efficiently...with flats.

Edited May 16, 2017 by stefmeister

[Jakes153]

He's on a Canyon and Morewood. 

Well, that rules out point no 3 then.

[Odinson]

I got this bit from my man Aaron Gwin: weight your pedals be pressing your thighs apart when you're going over rough terrain or getting some airtime.

[Mongooser]

Mongooser... i am not sure if you are on a Mongoose or not. It could be 3 things if you like your flats.

 

1. Running normal takkies and not quite grippy pedals:

Look into a set of 5.10 shoes. Also look at pedals with threaded/slightly longer pins. Get thin concave pedals and all of the above. Thats pretty much as grippy as it will get.

2. It could be technique. Maybe get some advice from another local DHer. Let them follow you down a trail and tell you what you can improve on.

3. A Mongoose Booter: Not dissing bikes here at all, but the floating BB/crank on a Booter causes the crank/pedals to move back and forth under compressions. So your pins in the pedals never quite settle into the grip of the shoe. Even Pottie swopped from flats to clips when he moved from Cannondale to Mongoose back in 2007/8. He grated away a set of 5.10 Impact lows in a bit more than a month.

 

Mongooser... i am not sure if you are on a Mongoose or not. It could be 3 things if you like your flats.

 

1. Running normal takkies and not quite grippy pedals:

Look into a set of 5.10 shoes. Also look at pedals with threaded/slightly longer pins. Get thin concave pedals and all of the above. Thats pretty much as grippy as it will get.

2. It could be technique. Maybe get some advice from another local DHer. Let them follow you down a trail and tell you what you can improve on.

3. A Mongoose Booter: Not dissing bikes here at all, but the floating BB/crank on a Booter causes the crank/pedals to move back and forth under compressions. So your pins in the pedals never quite settle into the grip of the shoe. Even Pottie swopped from flats to clips when he moved from Cannondale to Mongoose back in 2007/8. He grated away a set of 5.10 Impact lows in a bit more than a month.

i ride with some skate shoes,they are dam grippy

i often have people follow me to help,my skill has gotten a lot better now and i can go into stuff way faster than before,the feet problem isn't as bad as it used to be.still figuring DH out tho

[V12man]

He's not entirely wrong, it's just that the sports science community don't give 2 ****s on what is more efficient so not many tests have been done. None of the studies you supplied directly link to flats vs clips, but rather on where the most power is produced and then you(the reader) make your own assumptions.

 

Yes flats could be more efficient because you probably aren't recruiting as many muscles as you would be with clipless**, thus you have a potentially higher power output with clips than with flats and obviously more energy expended.  

 

 

**Unless your technique is absolutely perfect with flats.

You have to be really careful about some of the measures of pedalling efficiency - so lower V02 is not neccesarily a good measure at all - there is good science that says that V02Max does to some extent relate to the amount of skeletal muscle being recruited during the test, so inter sport comparisons are not generally made, even when field VO2 tests are done - likewise heart rate is not really a good measure either (actually fundamentally poor - but unless you are a physiologist/cardiologist then it's a really long explanation)

 

The best current measure really available is power output I believe - so while it's possible to create a simple test, in practice it doesn't tell the full story of the multitude of variables that go into defining what the most "efficient" pedal system is - Let me give you a simple example:

 

Track cycling - accelerating from a standing start - power outputs of well over 1000w are seen during these starts - lets assume that power transfer ability of flats and clipless are the same (I don't believe they are, but lets make this assumption) - what happens to the rider if their foot loses contact with the pedal for some reason?

 

90% of the time a crash ensues, or the rider somehow rescues himself from crashing, but loses time (and in general the race)

 

So - which pedal system (at 1000w) gives the least likelihood of a foot slipping off the pedal? clips, clipless, or flats? Most likely either the clips or clipless - so in this scenario, they are the most appropriate to use (most efficient/effective) - and if flat pedals were better at high power(torque*rpm) than clipless/clips, then you would see them on the track.... yet you don't....

 

So - to study a hypothesis of what is the most efficient/effective pedal to use, you really have to define what are the attributes you need from that system - then measure those variables and see how they stack up against each other, and how they change when you change the pedal system.

 

So - when someone designs a stationary ergometer that properly simulates a steep, rough climb, and controls the effort required, or somehow devises a way to keep effort controlled and repeatable during a field test set, then a proper scientific test is possible - until then it is exceedingly difficult to create a proper test, let alone execute a good study...

 

Or - you can ask the top athletes in their specialties why they use what they use, and not the alternatives available.... and create a field study.

 

Track cycling

Road cycling

Marathon/XC mtb

Enduro mtb

DH mtb

 

might be good to do a review of what is used amongst the top athletes... (I don't plan to, but some enterprising phys ed student might get a project out of that...) but I am pretty sure I can distill a simple answer out of this...

 

If you plan to pedal hard and stay in contact with your pedals while pedaling , use clipless pedals.

If you want to get your feet off your pedals quickly - use flats...

 

Just please - never pretend that you can pedal as hard with flats as with clipless pedals.... and if you really think you can - please sell that idea to Sky cycling or one of that level teams.... let me know what they say....

 

Now - let me go and deal with some real work

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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