Tour de France 2018

[dsw]

@nochain,

 

Team strength is integral to individual success especially in decisive moments like the team time trial and the high mountains. When there's 7 riders in the final phase of a summit finalè, and 3 riders are on the same team, the value of tactical options available is massive, not to mention the psychological benefits.

 

The number of time trial national champions within the Team Sky outfit is worth noting.

 

All this places Dumoulin's performance in perspective.

He is a fantastic GT challenger and will inevitably wear yellow into Paris, barriing illness or injury.

 

 

Based on your own argument that team strength is relevant to individual success (and I am not necessarily disputing it) your statement that Dumoulin will eventually wear yellow in Paris is very unlikely to come true if he stays with his current team for much longer. 

[nochain]

@nochain,

 

Team strength is integral to individual success especially in decisive moments like the team time trial and the high mountains. When there's 7 riders in the final phase of a summit finalè, and 3 riders are on the same team, the value of tactical options available is massive, not to mention the psychological benefits.

 

The number of time trial national champions within the Team Sky outfit is worth noting.

 

All this places Dumoulin's performance in perspective.

He is a fantastic GT challenger and will inevitably wear yellow into Paris, barriing illness or injury.

I agree with you on the psychological effects.

But Sunweb is not a weak team...as stated by the way they protected their leader Gc hopes in the TTT.

Hopefully everybody on here already know this is a team game.

What I am asking is give me an example in THIS race..how would stronger riders for Tom would have changed the outcome.

Anybody can make general statements like the team makes the difference..

[nochain]

Sorry, this might come across as nitpicking, but it is a general comment on your entire post:

 

So you say that if Thomas was in Team Dimension Data this yeae he would have taken the yellow jersey to Paris?

 

I highly doubt it, and I think a couple of people would agree with me.

 

Deep pockets give you so much more than just the best riders, you can get the best of everything:doctors, meds, lawyers, TUEs, training equipment, nutrition, support staff, hotel accommodation.

 

Money isn't everything, but it is way more important than your post made it out to be.

????????No maybe not with DDD but I was more refering to other Gc teams that had leaders in the game.

I agree that in the buildup it makes a difference..but like I said everybody seem to think that Sunweb is already doing all of the same things.They all have top coaches and doctors..there is very little in training and nutrition that is not public knowledge.

The question is really that all is saying if they had money they can buy stronger riders..

[dsw]

If you push Bernal too hard now he will fail. He is still too young to handle the pressure of being a team captain. He has talent, but it must be nurtured. Look at what happened to Van Garderen when they also said he had heaps of talent as GC rider.

 

Despite being very young he seems to have a mature head on his shoulders taking into consideration the composure he showed during what was a very difficult Tour for his team.

 

Besides that , he was also the Team leader during the Tour of California which he won and also had the team riding for him during the Tour of Romandie after he turned out to be stronger than his more senior colleaguesin the race including Geraint Thomas.

 

So, yeah,I agree they they must be very careful and not over race him or push him too hard, but I also believe he is not the type of rider that will have to do a very long "apprenticeship” before they can give him leadership responsibilities.

[Thor Buttox]

No idea why ASO and UCI don't work together to have the reverse incentive scheme the British football has wherein the teams get more cash at year end depending how low they end in each league. (Or at least it was like that a while ago). No doubt the could legitimately affect the future success of world cycling by putting in some well needed funding into the smaller teams.

 

Oh, yeah, I forgot their incompetence (read: French flair) . Sorry, bad idea.

[dsw]

No idea why ASO and UCI don't work together to have the reverse incentive scheme the British football has wherein the teams get more cash at year end depending how low they end in each league. (Or at least it was like that a while ago). No doubt the could legitimately affect the future success of world cycling by putting in some well needed funding into the smaller teams.

 

Oh, yeah, I forgot their incompetence (read: French flair) . Sorry, bad idea.

 

It has not made much difference in British football as the difference between the top 4 teams and the rest is becoming bigger and bigger (2016 was an anomaly). 

 

To quote Leonard Cohen:

 

Everybody knows that the dice are loaded 

Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed 

Everybody knows that the war is over 

Everybody knows the good guys lost 

Everybody knows the fight was fixed 

The poor stay poor, the rich get rich 

That's how it goes 

Everybody knows 

 

[nochain]

Based on your own argument that team strength is relevant to individual success (and I am not necessarily disputing it) your statement that Dumoulin will eventually wear yellow in Paris is very unlikely to come true if he stays with his current team for much longer.

I think this is part of the thing for me..team strength obviously is relevant..but to what extend.

There is a point that stronger support is not going to make much of a difference in Grand Tours..the leader always will have to be the strongest..or at least very close to the strongest.Good support is essential especially when things go wrong..like when Tom had that mechanical.But when you going up a mountain it boils down to can you follow or not.

Quintana can have the strongest support in the world but with his unique attributes is it actually going to help him beat Sky?I dont think so..

I believe Tom will win because he is a top class Gc leader and he has the guns to take on the rest...and he needs a strong team but certainly dont have to match Sky on budget to get the job done.

[nochain]

PS Road cycling is a team sport. Quite a game of chess. The stronger your pieces. Viola!

Not as simple as that by a long mile..not in GT's anyway.

Classics yes..like the wolfpack the more cards you have to play the more likely you can get the job done.But thats 1 day..tomorrow they have a different rider that win and so on.

GT's you have one guy that needs to be there for the whole of the 3 weeks.Extremely leader dependent..

So what happens if your leader runs out of legs? You can have 5 Bernals it is not going to make a difference.

For example..Thomas did not need Bernal when the push was on..Froome did ..big time. But in the end the strongest support climber in the world could not help him beat TD.

 

Where I believe budget makes a big difference is the opportunity for them to get GC leaders on early and then grow them..so they can keep on winning over long periods of time.

[Thor Buttox]

It has not made much difference in British football as the difference between the top 4 teams and the rest is becoming bigger and bigger (2016 was an anomaly).

 

To quote Leonard Cohen:

 

Everybody knows that the dice are loaded

Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed

Everybody knows that the war is over

Everybody knows the good guys lost

Everybody knows the fight was fixed

The poor stay poor, the rich get rich

That's how it goes

Everybody knows

 

True but that is very much an owner related issue. But it wouldn't hurt...

 

Ps: with cycling, I think Mr Young said it better in 'The Needle and the Damage done'

['Dale]

Based on your own argument that team strength is relevant to individual success (and I am not necessarily disputing it) your statement that Dumoulin will eventually wear yellow in Paris is very unlikely to come true if he stays with his current team for much longer.

His contract with Sunweb is for a few more years

They will have to buy another rider or two to support him where the air is thin and the finalè is on

['Dale]

Not as simple as that by a long mile... SNIP

Where I believe budget makes a big difference is the opportunity for them to get GC leaders on early and then grow them..so they can keep on winning over long periods of time.

This ????????

We are on the same page more or less

Just different references, I reckon

 

Although your first statement minimizes the significance of budget on and now it includes the importance of it.

 

It's a money game and the best talent can be attached with the best salary scale ????

[Eldron]

PS Road cycling is a team sport. Quite a game of chess. The stronger your pieces. Viola!

 

Typo of the year - coffee sprayed all over screen.

 

Thanks for that   

['Dale]

Typo of the year - coffee sprayed all over screen.

 

Thanks for that

Hehehe

It was late... okay

 

????

[nochain]

This ????????

We are on the same page more or less

Just different references, I reckon

 

Although your first statement minimizes the significance of budget on and now it includes the importance of it.

 

It's a money game and the best talent can be attached with the best salary scale ????

No doubt..but I still sit here and think..if I am TD and I am on Alpe final climb...sky driving everybody to pieces what would I do with more riders around me?

How will that change the outcome of that stage..Thomas in the end got up and rode away..

[SwissVan]

Not as simple as that by a long mile..not in GT's anyway.

Classics yes..like the wolfpack the more cards you have to play the more likely you can get the job done.But thats 1 day..tomorrow they have a different rider that win and so on.

GT's you have one guy that needs to be there for the whole of the 3 weeks.Extremely leader dependent..

So what happens if your leader runs out of legs? You can have 5 Bernals it is not going to make a difference.

For example..Thomas did not need Bernal when the push was on..Froome did ..big time. But in the end the strongest support climber in the world could not help him beat TD.

 

Where I believe budget makes a big difference is the opportunity for them to get GC leaders on early and then grow them..so they can keep on winning over long periods of time.

Exactly, obvisouly a good team makes a difference but at the end of the day it’s up to the rider.

 

TD and CF raced the Giro, GT did not

Would have been a different race if all 3 did the Giro or did not....no matter how strong your team, they can’t pedal for you when the legs are swimming in lactic acid

['Dale]

No doubt..but I still sit here and think..if I am TD and I am on Alpe final climb...sky driving everybody to pieces what would I do with more riders around me?

How will that change the outcome of that stage..Thomas in the end got up and rode away..

For this event, he was the best rider who stayed on his bike and had no mechanicals of note or illness

Tom D admitted that at the end of stage 20

 

6 out of 7 wins since ‘12

More than double the budget

Budget buys up of the best talent

This strategy predicts success

Enough said