The Veganism Thread

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Well it certainly wasn't eating a plant-based diet.

 

Sorry, I had to. It's late on a Friday  

HAHA!

 

One thing we can't argue is that a plant-based diet now is radically different to the plant-based diet that would have been present even 10,000 years ago. Rapid changes in development of agriculture, selective breeding and GM of grains, pulses and so on have resulted in a plant-based diet that is far more nutritious than the historic one. 

[Odinson]

It’s not an argument, it’s a fact. We can’t just dismiss t because it doesn’t suit our world view.

Who’s dismissing it? Are you reading to respond or to understand what I’m saying?

[Patchelicious]

Who’s dismissing it? Are you reading to respond or to understand what I’m saying?

You said it’s a straw man argument?

[Patchelicious]

Ok Odison, let’s try this another way.

 

I am a prospective vegan, you have told me all the good and wonderful things about it.

 

But what are the downs sides or negatives about swtiching to a plant based diet in your opinion?

[Odinson]

You said it’s a straw man argument?

 

Because an approximation of facts are being used as a tool to defeat the argument of veganism. 

[Patchelicious]

Because an approximation of facts are being used as a tool to defeat the argument of veganism.

That’s where you are wrong, I am not trying to defeat it, why would I, I support it.

 

Not everything that isn’t pro vegan is auto anti vegan.

Fact is meat was an integral part of our evolution, that doesn’t mean it still needs to be. But we can’t be dismissive about facts that don’t support our cause.

[Odinson]

That’s where you are wrong, I am not trying to defeat it, why would I, I support it.

 

Not everything that isn’t pro vegan is auto anti vegan.

Fact is meat was an integral part of our evolution, that doesn’t mean it still needs to be. But we can’t be dismissive about facts that don’t support our cause.

 

I'm not saying you are, but I'm referring to 6th ME's posts and also more generally. It's an argument that pops up from time to time. 

 

That eating other animals was part of Sapien evolution is undeniable. My disagreement was merely on the extent of that contribution and persons' choice to use it to justify diet choices in the here and now. 

[Edition 507]

Lets assume everything you say here is correct wrt health.

 

You say '  veganism is unnatural as it is based purely on an ideological or ethical principle', moving forward to today, do you think its time to ask yourself - what is the value of.. an animal, 100 animals, a million animals, a species, a million species, a river, an ocean...

 

As such superior minds should we not take into account those other creatures and environments around us? Is an ethical way of living not a positive move, natural or unnatural? Which although debatable still threatens our very clever minds very existence on the planet?

In this era of our existence I agree wholeheartedly. 

[Edition 507]

Factory farming is not a result of our diet choice.  It is purely a result of the exponential human population growth which is sadly a result of our evolutionary success.

Exponential population growth requires an equivalent exponential food production. This is driving factory farming, this is driving deforestation and natural habitat destruction to make place for large scale industrial farming. This is driving increasing pesticide use and the development of GMO’s. This is driving the need to yield the most food possible from the least resources possible at the least risk possible at the cheapest price possible.

This cannot be done with traditional farming and natural food production methods. It cannot be done morally or ethically. It cannot be done in a humane, sustainable, green and organic manner. It cannot be done without driving the food price beyond the means of billions of poor and poverty stricken people. It cannot be done without large scale human starvation and suffering.

So we are facing a moral dilemma, be nice to animals or be nice to humans?

[Chris_]

Factory farming is not a result of our diet choice.  It is purely a result of the exponential human population growth which is sadly a result of our evolutionary success.

Exponential population growth requires an equivalent exponential food production. This is driving factory farming, this is driving deforestation and natural habitat destruction to make place for large scale industrial farming. This is driving increasing pesticide use and the development of GMO’s. This is driving the need to yield the most food possible from the least resources possible at the least risk possible at the cheapest price possible.

This cannot be done with traditional farming and natural food production methods. It cannot be done morally or ethically. It cannot be done in a humane, sustainable, green and organic manner. It cannot be done without driving the food price beyond the means of billions of poor and poverty stricken people. It cannot be done without large scale human starvation and suffering.

So we are facing a moral dilemma, be nice to animals or be nice to humans?

 

I think you've left out a few elements to make this beautifully linear progression though.

 

Are you referencing food production as meat or in general crops? We've seen that a lot of general food production is used to keep meat production afloat. So the latter seems to exponentially magnify the former(?).

 

ITO meat the fact that we celebrate and encourage its consumption only fulfils this push. If we made it less aspirational this would then exponentially reduce the growth rate?

 

I also can't help but think capitalism, which neither animal nor planet care for has made this process a lot more cutthroat than it needs to be. GMO's and pesticides are a results of this endless pursuit of monetary efficiency. It also speaks to your final line of being nice to (*poor) humans. We've made that decision long long ago...

[Odinson]

Factory farming is not a result of our diet choice.  It is purely a result of the exponential human population growth which is sadly a result of our evolutionary success.

Exponential population growth requires an equivalent exponential food production. This is driving factory farming, this is driving deforestation and natural habitat destruction to make place for large scale industrial farming. This is driving increasing pesticide use and the development of GMO’s. This is driving the need to yield the most food possible from the least resources possible at the least risk possible at the cheapest price possible.

This cannot be done with traditional farming and natural food production methods. It cannot be done morally or ethically. It cannot be done in a humane, sustainable, green and organic manner. It cannot be done without driving the food price beyond the means of billions of poor and poverty stricken people. It cannot be done without large scale human starvation and suffering.

So we are facing a moral dilemma, be nice to animals or be nice to humans?

 

It can be argued that factory farming is a direct result of our diet choice. More demand for meat = more intensive processes to meet demand. 

 

Look at this progression in the demand for meat: 

 

 

A fundamental issue is that we consider ourselves distinct from the rest of the natural world. We can't live on a dead planet. So, we need to be nice to ourselves, the planet and the animals.

[Goodbadugly]

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Edited February 3, 2019 by Goodbadugly

[Odinson]

https://www.facebook.com/mercyforanimals/videos/1297580680405366/

[Goodbadugly]

https://www.facebook.com/mercyforanimals/videos/1297580680405366/

oh please

Edited February 3, 2019 by Goodbadugly

[Uni]

 

bought this at a market this weekend. 

Now if I told you it's a savoury nut spread (macadamia nuts) I think most people would enjoy it. It has a grainy texture to it and a nice taste.

 

But now if I told you what it's actually sold as -- vegan cheese, you might (like me be disappointed) 

I haven't tried melting it yet, apparently it melts like normal cheese but this is one time where I'd say yeah, don't call it cheese man!!! 

 

it's expensive, small 200g tub R50 and I imagine the calorie / fat content is pretty high, but as a "cheese" cracker alternative, or in a salad, it's not bad. on a pizza .... hell no! 

[Odinson]

oh please

 

"Oh please" what?