The Veganism Thread

[Chris_]

....

 

 

Regarding the 'appropriateness' these images:

(and I have also just learned something today..)

 

 

 

Using data from the 2017 USDA Census of Agriculture, which was released this month, it is estimated that 70.4 percent of cows, 98.3 percent of pigs, 99.8 percent of turkeys, 98.2 percent of chickens raised for eggs, and over 99.9 percent of chickens raised for meat are raised in factory farms.

 

 

Global research also conducted by the non-profit organization SI, suggests over 90 percent of farmed animals worldwide live on factory farms.

[Odinson]

https://wokennews.com/2018/12/25/vegans-now-claiming-that-stuffing-the-turkey-to-be-sexual-assault/

Wokenews? That site next to Breitbart, Infowars and Fox on your bookmarks tab?

[Odinson]

Well, on the face of it they don't seem much to understand dynamic systems.

 

Or choose not to, probably because it's detrimental to the permanence of their employment..?

 

Dunno.

 

So... You slag off both the panel's credibility and knowledge of the topic and the center of their mandate on the basis of "dunno"? 

[IceCreamMan]

Wokenews? That site next to Breitbart, Infowars and Fox on your bookmarks tab?

Haha. Just stirring. It’s monday we need to get through the week.

[Odinson]

Haha. Just stirring. It’s monday we need to get through the week.

 

[davetapson]

Regarding the 'appropriateness' these images:

(and I have also just learned something today..)

Yeah, soon as you see a sweeping statements like x% of cows are raised in factory farms, you already know it's BS, or if you prefer, not the whole story, or possibly more accurately, less than half the story. 

 

There's a process that is typically followed, and it's not 'raising cows on factory farms.'  It's possible that 70% of cattle may be finished in feedlots, but this concept of 'oh the cows live for x years in a factory' just isn't how it happens.

 

We'll use Wikipedia as it's so well regarded on this thread... I'll chop out the stuff that's not pertinent because reading more than 140 characters is hard these days... I'll also italicize something that is kind of a big issue.  I'll put the link at the bottom of the post.

 

Cattle are domesticated ungulates, a member of the family Bovidae, in the subfamily Bovinae, and descended from the aurochs (Bos primigenius).^[34]

Cattle are often raised by allowing herds to graze on the grasses of large tracts of rangeland called ranches. Raising cattle in this manner allows the productive use of land that might be unsuitable for growing crops.

Once cattle obtain an entry-level weight, about 650 pounds (290 kg), they are transferred from the range to a feedlot to be fed a specialized animal feed ...

 

So we're quite happily disregarding the herds that provide the offspring that go into the feedlots and all that they and the processes around them represent.  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intensive_animal_farming

 

PS: If it's something you feel strongly about, there are alternatives too - you can always support guys like Angus McIntosh https://www.farmerangus.co.za/ or farmers like the Salatins http://www.polyfacefarms.com/ or come to NZ where they're producing Wagyu off grass.

Edited August 5, 2019 by davetapson

[Chris_]

Yeah, soon as you see a sweeping statements like x% of cows are raised in factory farms, you already know it's BS, or if you prefer, not the whole story, or possibly more accurately, less than half the story. 

 

There's a process that is typically followed, and it's not 'raising cows on factory farms.'  It's possible that 70% of cattle may be finished in feedlots, but this concept of 'oh the cows live for x years in a factory' just isn't how it happens.

 

We'll use Wikipedia as it's so well regarded on this thread... I'll chop out the stuff that's not pertinent because reading more than 140 characters is hard these days... I'll also italicize something that is kind of a big issue.  I'll put the link at the bottom of the post.

 

Cattle are domesticated ungulates, a member of the family Bovidae, in the subfamily Bovinae, and descended from the aurochs (Bos primigenius).^[34]

Cattle are often raised by allowing herds to graze on the grasses of large tracts of rangeland called ranches. Raising cattle in this manner allows the productive use of land that might be unsuitable for growing crops.

Once cattle obtain an entry-level weight, about 650 pounds (290 kg), they are transferred from the range to a feedlot to be fed a specialized animal feed ...

 

So we're quite happily disregarding the herds that provide the offspring that go into the feedlots and all that they and the processes around them represent.  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intensive_animal_farming

 

PS: If it's something you feel strongly about, there are alternatives too - you can always support guys like Angus McIntosh https://www.farmerangus.co.za/ or farmers like the Salatins http://www.polyfacefarms.com/ or come to NZ where they're producing Wagyu off grass.

 

Reading that same wiki page suggests pigs and chickens are perhaps indoors their entire lives?

 

Even if we agree that that 70% of cattle mentioned are born out in the pastures, still 100% of them intended for beef, veal (seems a little counter-intuitive to the above) and dairy still end up in the factory farm situation as they reach commercial viability?

[davetapson]

Reading that same wiki page suggests pigs and chickens are perhaps indoors their entire lives?

 

Even if we agree that that 70% of cattle mentioned are born out in the pastures, still 100% of them intended for beef, veal (seems a little counter-intuitive to the above) and dairy still end up in the factory farm situation as they reach commercial viability?

If we talk beef, they and their moms, mostly all live on ranches, using land that mostly can't be cropped (because if it could be, it would be) sequestering away carbon.

 

They get taken to feedlots to be fattened for a few months prior to slaughter (what the media likes to call factory farms because it triggers people and gets clicks or something.)

 

Is this a strong argument for veganism?

[Chris_]

If we talk beef, they and their moms, mostly all live on ranches, using land that mostly can't be cropped (because if it could be, it would be) sequestering away carbon.

 

They get taken to feedlots to be fattened for a few months prior to slaughter (what the media likes to call factory farms because it triggers people and gets clicks or something.)

 

Is this a strong argument for veganism?r0_2_846_600_w1200_h678_fmax.jpg

 

Yes. 1 of many I think.

 

You're specifically growing and killing these animals and with your rose tinted glasses on being willfully appreciative of their circumstances.

 

I don't like seeing images of chickens in cages. I don't like seeing images of pigs living in boxes. I don't like seeing cows locked in restricted spaces. I don't like seeing ducks and geese  being force-fed for foie gras, I don't like seeing the abuse of our oceans and the truckloads of 'acceptable collateral damage' being simultaneously hauled out in staggering numbers.

 

Most of all though I don't understand why you're rallying so hard against people choosing not to partake in these events.

[Patchelicious]

Yes. 1 of many I think.

 

You're specifically growing and killing these animals and with your rose tinted glasses on being willfully appreciative of their circumstances.

 

I don't like seeing images of chickens in cages. I don't like seeing images of pigs living in boxes. I don't like seeing cows locked in restricted spaces. I don't like seeing ducks and geese  being force-fed for foie gras, I don't like seeing the abuse of our oceans and the truckloads of 'acceptable collateral damage' being simultaneously hauled out in staggering numbers.

 

Most of all though I don't understand why you're rallying so hard against people choosing not to partake in these events.

 

Are you talking about Dave or veganists?

[100Tours]

That's a good question. 

 

Veganism is an ethical stance against the unnecessary exploitation of animals. This extends to diet. Thus, a vegan eats a plant-based diet. However, just eating a plant-based diet doesn't necessarily mean that you're living in alignment with vegan principles (e.g. you could eat a plant-based diet, but still hunt or go to a 'wild animal' circus). 

 

Veganism IS NOT a diet. 

 

It's good that you've thought about the treatment of animals. I would have to disagree with your last paragraph. You cannot ethically consume an animal's body. Once you accept that animals are sentient beings here with us, not for us, one cannot 'ethically' eat their dismembered bodies or the products of their death.  

 

Your last sentence - are you referring to human history or an individual's lifetime? 

 

Thanks for the response, and a very helpful perspective.

 

On the ethics of eating animals, you first have to believe some version of us/animals being 'put' here at all (by whom I wonder?), so it can't be that consuming animals is unethical unless you first hold some vegan beliefs.

 

On my last statement it is my understanding that is it inadvisable for women to avoid animal products during pregnancy, and for anyone to be 100% vegan as a child because of the risk of nutritional deficiencies. As an adult I think you can get by just fine on veggies.

[100Tours]

On the impact of a vegan diet on pregnancy, I would note that the majority of our research on vit B12 deficiencies would not exist if it were not for vegans:

 

 

Most of the initial data regarding vitamin B₁₂ deficiency in infancy are from case studies of infants exclusively breastfed by mothers on vegan, vegetarian, or lacto-ovo vegetarian diets. Several authors have described developmental retardation and “infant tremor syndrome” in 4- to 11-month-old infants of vegetarian mothers from India [7, 8]. Four case studies from the United States described lethargy, irritability, and developmental delay among exclusively breastfed infants (ages 6 to 10 months) of vegan or vegetarian mothers [9–12]. Restoration of developmental skills after therapy was variable, with at least two cases reporting ongoing delays [9, 12], and one reporting developmental recovery [11]. Similar cases have been reported from Europe [13–17]. Again, the infants displayed delayed motor skills, along with lethargy, and were exclusively breastfed by mothers who were vegan or lacto-ovo vegetarian. After therapy, recovery was variable, with some children remaining moderately or severely retarded [13, 17–19].

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3137939/

 

Now I know you can supplement B12, and that may address the issue. But I'd have a word with whomever didn't put the animals here for you to eat about where they hid the B12..

Edited August 5, 2019 by 100Tours

[Odinson]

Thanks for the response, and a very helpful perspective.

 

On the ethics of eating animals, you first have to believe some version of us/animals being 'put' here at all (by whom I wonder?), so it can't be that consuming animals is unethical unless you first hold some vegan beliefs.

 

On my last statement it is my understanding that is it inadvisable for women to avoid animal products during pregnancy, and for anyone to be 100% vegan as a child because of the risk of nutritional deficiencies. As an adult I think you can get by just fine on veggies.

You’ve honestly lost me on that second paragraph. Mind elaborating a bit?

 

On the second point, have a read here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19562864/

[Odinson]

On the impact of a vegan diet on pregnancy, I would note that the majority of our research on vit B12 deficiencies would not exist if it were not for vegans:

 

 

Most of the initial data regarding vitamin B

₁₂

deficiency in infancy are from case studies of infants exclusively breastfed by mothers on vegan, vegetarian, or lacto-ovo vegetarian diets. Several authors have described developmental retardation and “infant tremor syndrome” in 4- to 11-month-old infants of vegetarian mothers from India [

7

,

8

]. Four case studies from the United States described lethargy, irritability, and developmental delay among exclusively breastfed infants (ages 6 to 10 months) of vegan or vegetarian mothers [

9

–

12

]. Restoration of developmental skills after therapy was variable, with at least two cases reporting ongoing delays [

9

,

12

], and one reporting developmental recovery [

11

]. Similar cases have been reported from Europe [

13

–

17

]. Again, the infants displayed delayed motor skills, along with lethargy, and were exclusively breastfed by mothers who were vegan or lacto-ovo vegetarian. After therapy, recovery was variable, with some children remaining moderately or severely retarded [

13

,

17

–

19

].

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3137939/

 

Now I know you can supplement B12, and that may address the issue. But I'd have a word with whomever didn't put the animals here for you to eat about where they hid the B12..

Maybe nail your colours to the mast? Cryptic references to a deity doesn’t really move the discussion along.

 

B12 is not made by animals. Made by bacteria. The reason why supplementation on a vegan diet is recommended is due to the fact that we wash our produce, thereby stripping the naturally occurring B12.

[100Tours]

Maybe nail your colours to the mast? Cryptic references to a deity doesn’t really move the discussion along.

 

B12 is not made by animals. Made by bacteria. The reason why supplementation on a vegan diet is recommended is due to the fact that we wash our produce, thereby stripping the naturally occurring B12.

 

Fair enough - I don't believe in God or in any grand plan that we are or are not part of. I'm a Darwinian - we've evolved inside of our ecosystem, and more recently yes we've made a bit of a mess of it. We haven't quite figured out how not to eat animals yet, and I think your vegan beliefs are not based on reliable science.

 

From the reading I have done on the subject, being vegan increases your risk of retinol and B12 deficiencies, which means brain development suffers. There was a recent court case in France where a vegan couple were tried for the murder of their daughter because they did not supplement her vegan diet (were they not educated enough or sophisticated enough to be successful vegans perhaps?). Meat eating people don't seem to have the same issue.

 

You imply that if we didn't wash our vegetables we would get the B12 we need. I haven't seen that anywhere before.

 

Maybe you can explain why it seems difficult for vegans to manage their chosen diet in a way that meat consuming people don't?

Edited August 5, 2019 by 100Tours

[Chris_]

Are you talking about Dave or veganists?

 

Yeah that was quite a general point. Mainly at Mr Tapson. It can even be an open invite to anyone else who poignantly opposes the betterment of animal welfare. (as often witnessed in anti-vegan arguments)