Advice needed For Post Bike Sale

[AdamA]

Looking at the details of the Bike Hub Pay, which is a paid for service which protects the buyer and seller when buying items they haven't physically seen 

 

The money would have been paid to the seller 48hours after the delivery/receipt of the goods

 

In this case that would have been on the Friday 15th JAN. Which ever came first. 

 

[2021/01/15, 11:44:24] Luke: Hi. Got the bike! All looks good. Are the original decals under the new ones?

or 

2020/01/15 at which ever time he received the bike.

 

 

My point being the buyer does not use a 'paid for service' which offers him the protection against what has happened here, but expects the even more benefits that they offer. (more than 48 hours to inspect the bike) 

 

 

 

A deal is considered non-refundable in the event that:

• The buyer has accepted the item via the "Complete Deal" button.
• More than 48 hours have passed since the item was delivered by the courier company.
• The item has been used by the buyer.

 

 

http://help.bikehub.co.za/en/articles/4611559-what-if-the-item-received-isn-t-as-described

[AdamA]

You have got the plot all wrong - yes there is risk in terms of future issues but the goods must at least arrive in the condition they were promised to be in and at the spec they were stated to be in.

 

Buying second hand and inspecting the goods yourself is risky in terms of future issues

Buying second hand and not inspecting the goods is a gamble.

 

If something arrives broken(or the wrong spec) and it can be shown it was broken before the goods were sent and the correct spec, issue or damage was not stated in the ad then the seller must either take it back and refund or cover the cost to remedy the situation.

 

Please see my post above that even Bike Hub pay (paid for service) only allows for 48hours to raise a Complaint after the goods arrived  "If you've purchased an item via Bike Hub Pay which differs materially from what the seller described it can be returned for a full refund." (and the return of goods is for the Buyers account)

 

Otherwise using your logic a seller can send any old sht and just tell the buyer, "Ag too bad boet, buying 2hnd is risky hey, ask Adam he'll  the lawyers they'll tell you how it works"

 

Please see post #31 form this thread.

https://community.bikehub.co.za/topic/187932-advice-needed-for-post-bike-sale/?p=3759300

 

You pay less when buying secondhand not because you are taking a gamble that the seller may be a POS and send you broken stuff, rather you pay less because 1. it's been used, 2. it's not the colour you wanted and 3. it has no warranty.

 

What is the difference between these 2 bikes other than:

• the Cycle Lab one has just has a full Service ( and a wash) (R1000) 
• and comes with a 30day money back guarantee ( and possibly CPA Protection) (R3500)

 

 

R13,999 https://www.cyclelab.com/product/pre-owned-2014-gt-zaskar-sport-mountain-bike-m

 

R9,500 https://bikehub.co.za/classifieds/item/hardtail-mountain-bikes/453707/rocky-mountain-fusion-29-m

 

Both bikes are used 29" hardtails, with air forks, and 10Spd gears, and hollow Tech Crank

 

Your are paying 30%-35% more for this warranties and CPA Protection

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by AdamA

[Skylark]

Looking at the details of the Bike Hub Pay, which is a paid for service which protects the buyer and seller when buying items they haven't physically seen

 

The money would have been paid to the seller 48hours after the delivery/receipt of the goods

 

In this case that would have been on the Friday 15th JAN. Which ever came first.

 

[2021/01/15, 11:44:24] Luke: Hi. Got the bike! All looks good. Are the original decals under the new ones?

or

2020/01/15 at which ever time he received the bike.

 

 

My point being the buyer does not use a 'paid for service' which offers him the protection against what has happened here, but expects the even more benefits that they offer. (more than 48 hours to inspect the bike)

 

 

A deal is considered non-refundable in the event that:

• The buyer has accepted the item via the "Complete Deal" button.
• More than 48 hours have passed since the item was delivered by the courier company.
• The item has been used by the buyer.

http://help.bikehub.co.za/en/articles/4611559-what-if-the-item-received-isn-t-as-described

The horse is dead, give it a break!

 

The deal wasn't done and agreed via Hub Pay so those terms and conditions are moot.

 

Although I do think 48hrs is a good time frame for buyers to be obliged to inspect and test whatever they have purchased and raise any issues within that window. If they do not bring anything up within that 48hrs then they will by default agree the goods are in order and as described.

 

For many people with full time jobs and families that 48hrs is going to be a scramble if it's a full bike that needs going over with a fine tooth comb...

 

With the bike I bought that turned out to have a cracked frame I only discovered that fact a week later and that only because I decided to strip the bike completely and by chance noticed a hairline crack at the chainstays near the BB.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Skylark

[Butterbean]

The horse is dead, give it a break!

 

The deal wasn't done and agreed via Hub Pay so those terms and conditions are moot.

 

Although I do think 48hrs is a good time frame for buyers to be obliged to inspect and test whatever they have purchased and raise any issues within that window and if they do not bring anything up within that timeframe then they by default agree the goods are in order and as described.

 

For many people with full time jobs and families that 48hrs is going to be a scramble if it's a full bike that needs going over with a fine tooth comb...

True that. But how loaded must you be that you dont inspect, or pay "the best mechanic in Johannesburg" to inspect and verify condition, after dropping sixty grand???

[Skylark]

 

You have got the plot all wrong - yes there is risk in terms of future issues but the goods must at least arrive in the condition they were promised to be in and at the spec they were stated to be in.

 

Buying second hand and inspecting the goods yourself is risky in terms of future issues

Buying second hand and not inspecting the goods is a gamble.

 

If something arrives broken(or the wrong spec) and it can be shown it was broken before the goods were sent and the correct spec, issue or damage was not stated in the ad then the seller must either take it back and refund or cover the cost to remedy the situation.

 

Please see my post above that even Bike Hub pay (paid for service) only allows for 48hours to raise a Complaint after the goods arrived "If you've purchased an item via Bike Hub Pay which differs materially from what the seller described it can be returned for a full refund." (and the return of goods is for the Buyers account)

 

Otherwise using your logic a seller can send any old sht and just tell the buyer, "Ag too bad boet, buying 2hnd is risky hey, ask Adam he'll the lawyers they'll tell you how it works"

 

Please see post #31 form this thread.

https://community.bikehub.co.za/topic/187932-advice-needed-for-post-bike-sale/?p=3759300

 

You pay less when buying secondhand not because you are taking a gamble that the seller may be a POS and send you broken stuff, rather you pay less because 1. it's been used, 2. it's not the colour you wanted and 3. it has no warranty.

 

What is the difference between these 2 bikes other than:

• the Cycle Lab one has just has a full Service ( and a wash) (R1000)
• and comes with a 30day money back guarantee ( and possibly CPA Protection) (R3500)

 

R13,999 https://www.cyclelab.com/product/pre-owned-2014-gt-zaskar-sport-mountain-bike-m

 

R9,500 https://bikehub.co.za/classifieds/item/hardtail-mountain-bikes/453707/rocky-mountain-fusion-29-m

 

Both bikes are used 29" hardtails, with air forks, and 10Spd gears, and hollow Tech Crank

 

Your are paying 30%-35% more for this warranties and CPA Protection

No matter what price an item is sold at it is no excuse to missrepresent it or fob off damaged goods.

 

If it's sold as X in clean condition and good working order then it must arrive as X in clean condition and good working order.

 

Common sense.

[Skylark]

True that. But how loaded must you be that you dont inspect, or pay "the best mechanic in Johannesburg" to inspect and verify condition, after dropping sixty grand???

I don't know, any one well versed in bikes can give a bike a good looking over, though ideally taking it to a bike mechanic you trust would probably be first prize.

 

It's more a matter of time because to be thorough you need to first get the bike spotlessly clean, then do a meticulous visual inspection, then test what mechanical stuff can be tested on the bike stand and then a solid road test which could be another hour or 2.

 

The basis for all of this really is trust, you trust that the seller sold you the stuff with good intentions and will be reasonable if something that is obviously faulty crops up.

[Edereese]

Rather bite the bullet, buy new and keep your receipts. Problem solved.

[AdamA]

No matter what price an item is sold at it is no excuse to missrepresent it or fob off damaged goods.

 

If it's sold as X in clean condition and good working order then it must arrive as X in clean condition and good working order.

 

Common sense.

 

The seller had 19 x 5 Star reviews on the day of the sale (30 today) .

 

I don't think it was his intention to misrepresent the FD or Crank.

I don't believe he was fobbing off damaged goods either - 3 accounts say it was shifting prior to 16th JAN 

• from the buyer - who had R60K invested 
• from the seller - who has 19 x5 Star Ratings
• from the previous owner who we know #$% all about 

If it's sold as X in clean condition and good working order then it must arrive as X in clean condition and good working order.

 

What happens if the goods are damaged by the Courier. If there is no signed contract between the buyer and the seller then transfer of ownership would happen on payment (AFAIK). 

 

This is why you pay Conveyancing Attorneys R50,000 to iron out these details before transfer of ownership on a house. 

[AdamA]

The horse is dead, give it a break!

 

The deal wasn't done and agreed via Hub Pay so those terms and conditions are moot.

 

Although I do think 48hrs is a good time frame for buyers to be obliged to inspect and test whatever they have purchased and raise any issues within that window. If they do not bring anything up within that 48hrs then they will by default agree the goods are in order and as described.

 

For many people with full time jobs and families that 48hrs is going to be a scramble if it's a full bike that needs going over with a fine tooth comb...

 

With the bike I bought that turned out to have a cracked frame I only discovered that fact a week later and that only because I decided to strip the bike completely and by chance noticed a hairline crack at the chainstays near the BB.

 

Your're missing the point. 

 

Had the buyer used Bike Hub Pay, he would have had the 48 hours to inspect the bike.

 

The fact that he didn't, means he bought it 'As is'.

[AdamA]

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by AdamA

[AdamA]

voetstoots 

adjective LAW

sold or purchased without guarantee or warranty; at the buyer's risk.

 

Is Voetstoots legal?

Voetstoots Case Law in South Africa

It has been ruled by our courts that a seller cannot rely on the voetstoots clause if the seller was aware of a latent defect and deliberately concealed or failed to disclose it with the intention to defraud the purchaser.

my understanding of this is that the buyer would have to prove 

1. seller was aware
2. deliberately concealed or failed to disclose with the intention to defraud the purchaser.

[CrankShaft]

Lesson learnt many times myself..don't buy anything you haven't tested yourself - bikes, cars, guns, etc..

 

Good luck resolving this since you clearly got a rotten deal.. 

[Skylark]

 

 

Your're missing the point.

 

Had the buyer used Bike Hub Pay, he would have had the 48 hours to inspect the bike.

 

The fact that he didn't, means he bought it 'As is'.

What the hell!?

 

Is that what you say when you sell something and it arrives with defects that were not disclosed and were clearly there before it was sent, "sorry bro, sold as is, lol"

 

Your logic is way out, how did the classifieds function before Bike Hub Pay arrived?

 

Did every one screw everyone over... sorry man I can see the frame I sold you has a small crack and the fork is a 650B not 29er but too bad.... as is

 

It's called having integrity and the majority of hubbers have it(you included I'm assuming) and that is the reason why the classifieds has been working just fine. I'm assuming by a huge margin most deals go down without a hitch.

[AdamA]

imho, you are over critical on the OP.  Yes,  he made mistakes, but so did the seller.

 

Bottom line, compensation (fair for both parties) is in order.

 

 

What mistakes did the seller make? 

• Selling on behalf of a friend 
• Advertising a bike in 'Mint Condition'  - only a coin and a stamp can me mint condition 
• missing the cracked FD - (Which he offered to rectify)  The buyer also missed this on first inspection
• mistaking the 172.5mm Crack - (Which he offered to rectify)

 

What did the seller do right?

• sent detailed pics of the bike when requested
• informed the buyer it was not the original colours and that it had decals placed over it
• 'indicated' that it was a friends bike when supplying the bank details
• "meticulously protected" the bike while boxing it
• Boxed and shipped the bike when he said he would.
• Sent the buyer the waybill number
• agreed to replace like for like the FD
• agreed to replace the 172.5mm crank

 

What more do you want from the seller?

[AdamA]

What the hell!?

 

Is that what you say when you sell something and it arrives with defects that were not disclosed and were clearly there before it was sent, "sorry bro, sold as is, lol"

 

No, I never sell anything that I don't believe to be in good order, but when I buy something I understand it to be 'as is', 'at the buyer's risk.' ... I did swop a 26" Cracked anthem frame for a case of beers after fully disclosing the crack and the fact i had it repaired twice. -  I can re-post the add if you want

 

Your logic is way out, how did the classifieds function before Bike Hub Pay arrived?

 

Bike Hub Pay was released recently to mitigate the risk when buying and selling. I assume that there was a lot of complaints that items were not 'as described' and people were disappointment when the sellers description of 'Excellent condition' did not match the buyers

 

Did every one screw everyone over... sorry man I can see the frame I sold you has a small crack and the fork is a 650B not 29er but too bad.... as is

 

In the 650Bvs29 Fork issue you'll noticed I commented (#6) in favor of the buyer. The seller misrepresented 100% of the product and did not send the 15mmTA. In this case the seller misrepresented (FD+Crank = R2500 +R2500 = R5000/R60000 )  8% of the sale and agreed to rectify it either by 'like for like' or 2nd Value.

 

My point here is that dealing in the 2nd hand market is more a case of  the old saying "Never invest more in the stock market that you can afford to loose'

 

 

It's called having integrity and the majority of hubbers have it(you included I'm assuming) and that is the reason why the classifieds has been working just fine. I'm assuming by a huge margin most deals go down without a hitch.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by AdamA

[AdamA]

Sorry to the people I have upset in this thread. That wasn't my intention. My intention was to hightlight the risks involved in buying goods you haven't seen and to point out if you go the legal route you need to have your ducks in a row.

 

I still hope that Rikus and Luke can resolve this without lawyers.

 

Happy Friday and have a great weekend