Bike Hub Pay

[Trashy]

9 minutes ago, Jewbacca said:

As a side, you guys do know that the project is part of a phased approach and a BH courier service etc is all part of the proposed service.

It has been documented..... Just saying

The more you guys use bikehub pay, the sooner the rest of the phases can be rolled out. 

That's really cool to hear.

In the meantime, could both parties not agree to terms of the shipping in the deal notes on BHP?

For example, a simple note stating that any issues regarding shipping are the sole responsibility of the buyer. BHP therefore gives assurance that the item itself is as stated, but shipping issues are for the buyer to navigate.

 

[Jewbacca]

7 minutes ago, Trashy said:

That's really cool to hear.

In the meantime, could both parties not agree to terms of the shipping in the deal notes on BHP?

For example, a simple note stating that any issues regarding shipping are the sole responsibility of the buyer. BHP therefore gives assurance that the item itself is as stated, but shipping issues are for the buyer to navigate.

 

I'd guess that the buyer and seller can agree to anything they want?

There in lies the biggest hurdle that bikehub faces. They offer a classifieds which facilitates millions of rands worth of sales, but none of which created any revenue AND a lot of those with issues were blaming bikehub, expecting them to step in and mediate buyer/seller relations and sour grapes.

The buyer/seller are still obligated to finalise any shipping agreements or conditions outside of the financial aspect.

The problem is when people don't and are dealing with an average human, who is usually pretty rubbish.

Some blanket assurance is better than none. There is no system that deals with dishonesty or 'that guy'. 

Where there is money, there will always be cheats. Be it in sport, business or buying and selling in the classifieds.

[RobbyB]

I'm just doubtful of a BikeHub courier company...unless it is in partnership with another existing company. Too many well established companies out there and with Pudo and the likes of similar companies offering budget deliveries (R50 for small parcels), would prove to be difficult to break into the market. BH does have a captured market so it is possible???

[The Ouzo]

14 hours ago, RobbyB said:

I'm just doubtful of a BikeHub courier company...unless it is in partnership with another existing company. Too many well established companies out there and with Pudo and the likes of similar companies offering budget deliveries (R50 for small parcels), would prove to be difficult to break into the market. BH does have a captured market so it is possible???

Pretty sure it would, at least at the start, be a partnership with an established courier service.

[Matt]

14 hours ago, RobbyB said:

I'm just doubtful of a BikeHub courier company...unless it is in partnership with another existing company. Too many well established companies out there and with Pudo and the likes of similar companies offering budget deliveries (R50 for small parcels), would prove to be difficult to break into the market. BH does have a captured market so it is possible???

 

6 minutes ago, ouzo said:

Pretty sure it would, at least at the start, be a partnership with an established courier service.

To be clear, we're not looking to start a courier company... we're tech folks who like bikes. The logistics stuff we'll leave to the pros.

What we are looking at is how we can streamline the shipping aspect of a deal through integration with courier partners. Currently it's a bit of a pain point in terms of who pays, which service to use, getting quotes, etc. etc. 

For smaller items it's fairly simple. There are many flat fee services like Postnet2Postnet or Aramex Dropbox that could be offered as standard options. For bikes it's a little more complex, but our ideal scenario is that a quote can be generated on the fly based on the buyer/seller locations & a booking made directly via Bike Hub. 

 

[RobbyB]

Sounds good...

[Matt]

19 hours ago, ConradS said:

I will admit that my first statement was unclear. I am not saying that Bikehub automatically sides with the buyer, I meant that that could be the outcome of the dispute in my scenario which leaves me down a crank. Obviously Bikehub will investigate (I made it clear that I have great respect for their approach to issues). In the stated scenario, Bikehub will find themselves in a very difficult situation. In that dispute, the seller who did nothing wrong now has a risk of loosing out big. That is my point. There is reason for a seller not to want to use the facility in an attempt to reduce his own risk. IMO it is very similar to a seller demanding cash for the item as it reduces the risk of fake EFT. The buyer now has more risk as they need to withdraw cash and could potentially be mugged. The seller reduces their risk by increasing risk to buyer and no one will call the seller unreasonable for demanding cash in the world that we live in. 

Yes, I have never had a buyer claim misrepresented item shipped but that's because there was little incentive. A scammer would have little to gain without the idea of a refund initiated by a middleman. 

I happen to have a damaged and useless XT M785 crank. Will you sell me a working one through Bikehub pay and let me illustrate my point?

Any reasonable person would understand my point here. Bikehub pay is not without merit but the idea that a seller not wanting to risk the above scenario making them automatically untrustworthy is absurd. My grievance is not with the facility itself, it is with this notion that anyone not wanting to use it should immediately be avoided.

ConradS, you do raise some valid points here. 

To begin with let me clarify my earlier statement. A seller not wanting to use Bike Hub Pay outright is not necessarily a cause for alarm and certainly doesn't mean they're a scammer. As I mentioned earlier, we know there are many long-time users who have a string of good reviews and are savvy with respect to payments, etc. For this reason it is optional. 

What might cause some alarm is where a seller accepts a Bike Hub Pay offer, only to then attempt to push the transaction offline. The reasons for that might well be legitimate, but even then it's a poor experience for buyer & seller - rather disable to Bike Hub Pay option altogether.

Bike Hub Pay solves for two primary risks:

1. The seller's risk of a fraudulent payment (despite it being a simple one to solve in waiting for an EFT to clear, we still see people being caught here)
2. The buyer's risk of receiving nothing after making payment, i.e. outright scam (this is the most common issue we see)

Once we are over those two hurdles we've ruled out the plainly bad actors, but then the more nuanced risks like you highlight do come into play. e.g. 

1. Buyer receives something that's not as described/advertised
2. Shipment is lost or damaged in transit
3. Unscrupulous buyer fraudulently claims item received was damaged

#1 is something we've seen the most of, but to-date any disputes of this nature have been amicably settled, either via a return and refund or a part-refund. Of 1060 deals agreed to date we've had 22 refunds/part-refunds due to this. 

#2 is a risk that's ideally solved through insurance. Unfortunately most couriers don't offer insurance on second hand goods or insurance they do offer has relatively low value limits and can be prohibitively expensive. Of 1060 deals agreed to date we've had 2 instances of items being lost/destroyed in transit. We are exploring options here to address this and offer better protection in this regard.

#3 is not an issue we've yet encountered, but a risk we'd noted when we first conceptualised Bike Hub Pay. In a case like this where we encounter an unresolvable dispute the matter would be referred to the relevant court. Bike Hub would hold the funds pending the outcome of any legal proceedings or a settlement between the parties. In our view, this alone is a suitable deterrent, but of course if it were to occur it is not a scenario a seller would want to find themselves in where money is tied up for a long period.


What we have seen in many peer-to-peer marketplaces abroad is a hybrid approach to their payments and buyer/seller protection:

• New sellers are subject to an escrow style deal or delayed payouts until such time as they've completed a suitable number of deals and established a reputation.
• Established sellers work on a more e-commerce style model, where they receive payouts within a few days of the transaction (regardless of delivery status).

Effectively the marketplace itself is then taking on the risk of non-performance on the part of the established or vetted seller and they typically offer buyer protection (i.e. refund guarantees) up to a set value.

We are exploring options around this to improve the appeal for established sellers, while still reducing risk for a buyer.
 

[ConradS]

48 minutes ago, Matt said:

ConradS, you do raise some valid points here. 

To begin with let me clarify my earlier statement. A seller not wanting to use Bike Hub Pay outright is not necessarily a cause for alarm and certainly doesn't mean they're a scammer. As I mentioned earlier, we know there are many long-time users who have a string of good reviews and are savvy with respect to payments, etc. For this reason it is optional. 

What might cause some alarm is where a seller accepts a Bike Hub Pay offer, only to then attempt to push the transaction offline. The reasons for that might well be legitimate, but even then it's a poor experience for buyer & seller - rather disable to Bike Hub Pay option altogether.

Bike Hub Pay solves for two primary risks:

1. The seller's risk of a fraudulent payment (despite it being a simple one to solve in waiting for an EFT to clear, we still see people being caught here)
2. The buyer's risk of receiving nothing after making payment, i.e. outright scam (this is the most common issue we see)

Once we are over those two hurdles we've ruled out the plainly bad actors, but then the more nuanced risks like you highlight do come into play. e.g. 

1. Buyer receives something that's not as described/advertised
2. Shipment is lost or damaged in transit
3. Unscrupulous buyer fraudulently claims item received was damaged

#1 is something we've seen the most of, but to-date any disputes of this nature have been amicably settled, either via a return and refund or a part-refund. Of 1060 deals agreed to date we've had 22 refunds/part-refunds due to this. 

#2 is a risk that's ideally solved through insurance. Unfortunately most couriers don't offer insurance on second hand goods or insurance they do offer has relatively low value limits and can be prohibitively expensive. Of 1060 deals agreed to date we've had 2 instances of items being lost/destroyed in transit. We are exploring options here to address this and offer better protection in this regard.

#3 is not an issue we've yet encountered, but a risk we'd noted when we first conceptualised Bike Hub Pay. In a case like this where we encounter an unresolvable dispute the matter would be referred to the relevant court. Bike Hub would hold the funds pending the outcome of any legal proceedings or a settlement between the parties. In our view, this alone is a suitable deterrent, but of course if it were to occur it is not a scenario a seller would want to find themselves in where money is tied up for a long period.


What we have seen in many peer-to-peer marketplaces abroad is a hybrid approach to their payments and buyer/seller protection:

• New sellers are subject to an escrow style deal or delayed payouts until such time as they've completed a suitable number of deals and established a reputation.
• Established sellers work on a more e-commerce style model, where they receive payouts within a few days of the transaction (regardless of delivery status).

Effectively the marketplace itself is then taking on the risk of non-performance on the part of the established or vetted seller and they typically offer buyer protection (i.e. refund guarantees) up to a set value.

We are exploring options around this to improve the appeal for established sellers, while still reducing risk for a buyer.
 

Hi Matt.

Thank you for your detailed response. I understood all of this before my original post. I know that your hands are tied should a situation like this arise. My issue was that people pretend like that risk does not exist and that the seller has no reason not to want to use the facility. I assumed that you incorporated this facility mainly aimed at new sellers, which I agree with. In this regard someone earlier said "use your common sense". Established Bikehub users just have less risk than new ones so the Bikehub pay offers the ability to reduces that risk should the seller seems sketchy. My issue was that the consensus seemed to lean towards there being no risk and thus sellers avoiding the facility are untrustworthy. The stated argument "has it ever happened" is not valid. There was a time when no EFT scam has ever happened, no theft, no murder. Unlock a door and some scammer will open it eventually. My fight was never with you as I know that you are aware of any shortcomings and do allow me to remove the option from my listing. I also know that you are only trying to consistently evolve this website and you are doing a great job at it but this buyer seller risk is just something that you will never be able to completely eliminate. I do agree with your stance on turn it off if you don't want to use it, don't accept an offer there and then take the deal offline.  

For most people this facility will work very well, for others not so much. I just want Bikehub users to understand that there are two sides to every story and some sellers may have legitimate reasons not to want to use the facility and they should not be branded as "stay away" for this. 

[OVERDRIVE]

I have read everyone's point. 

As a Hubber I automatically side with @Matt and am very comfortable being accused of bias. That being said, the whole idea of BHP is to minimise the risk. I have sold trucks, and cars on Gumtree safely, and I have also heard of many being scammed on the same platform. Many have even been scammed here. The idea is, for a fee, the risk is minimized. Nobody is being characterized as satan because they did not want to use the hub, but then they must also be happy in sending all the money through, waiting for it to be cleared, and counted by snow white and the seven dwarfs before the item is released. BHP does all that work, at a fee. 

There is a price for convinience for everything, such as races being cheaper for early birds etc. Someone once told me they could care less for the story of Noah and the flood, but he would be in that ark because he'd rather look stupid in the ark, than stuipid and drown in the flood. 

If there is no flood, all you've lost is the BHP fee. 

If there is, you've lost what you were selling, and the money, which makes one a double ****. 

Hence, BHP is the ark. 

Ps. You are all welcome to come to my church services from 0900 to 1230 on Saturdays. 

NB the last line is a JOKE don't DM me 🤣

[Jewbacca]

10 minutes ago, OVERDRIVE said:

I have read everyone's point. 

As a Hubber I automatically side with @Matt and am very comfortable being accused of bias. That being said, the whole idea of BHP is to minimise the risk. I have sold trucks, and cars on Gumtree safely, and I have also heard of many being scammed on the same platform. Many have even been scammed here. The idea is, for a fee, the risk is minimized. Nobody is being characterized as satan because they did not want to use the hub, but then they must also be happy in sending all the money through, waiting for it to be cleared, and counted by snow white and the seven dwarfs before the item is released. BHP does all that work, at a fee. 

There is a price for convinience for everything, such as races being cheaper for early birds etc. Someone once told me they could care less for the story of Noah and the flood, but he would be in that ark because he'd rather look stupid in the ark, than stuipid and drown in the flood. 

If there is no flood, all you've lost is the BHP fee. 

If there is, you've lost what you were selling, and the money, which makes one a double ****. 

Hence, BHP is the ark. 

Ps. You are all welcome to come to my church services from 0900 to 1230 on Saturdays. 

NB the last line is a JOKE don't DM me 🤣

But... But... But..... What if, this one time.......