upgrade or not?

[potent]

JB you dont have to attack cetain people.

 

what i was basically trying to say was that changing tyres can change how your bike performs / rides. if that were not true then why would people use different tyres on their bikes. there would be one standard tyre for all MTB bikes!!

 

[Hog_]

 

Last year October I bought a Silverback Alpine mtb. This is a typical beginners bike and in all the races I do' date=' you see them often. Now I was at my bikeshop picking it up from a service since I'm doing the 30km race in Stellenbosch this Saturday and they advised me that considering the amount of riding I do, I will outgrow my bike soon. As well that when I upgrade, rather not invest in components, like better shocks/ wheels, but go for a better bike in total.

 

What is wisdom? I always thought that the Silverback has quite good components thought to go for a lighter frame first, before upgrading parts...

 

what price range should I look at if I do decide to upgrade; is that untill approx 10,000?

 

[/quote']

 

 

Okay, so in an effort to be constructive, I re-read the original post, paid attention while reading, and will now give my expert opinion.

 

Buy a new bike. But before you do, be very honest with yourself.

What kind of riding do you do? Where can your riding improve? Can you focus on improving your skills, before the bike will start limiting you?

 

Also, if you're a newish rider, would it not build extra strength and fitness to pedal a heavier beast over the hill?

 

 

 

[Shebeen]

JB, i kinda disagree.

 

OP asked if it was worth getting a more expensive bike or just upgrading certain parts.

 

Potent has the identical bike and offered advice on things he upgraded and how they affected his bike (in his opinion). Drowning whales and flying pigs aside, he gave options on racier tyres - and it's obvious they were his opinion. I would rate that as good advice, as a mid range bike like the Alpine could probably do with better tyres. 

 

i'm wily enough not to debate this (and tyres for climbing) further, as i know i won't beat you.

[Johan Bornman]

JB you dont have to attack cetain people.

what i was basically trying to say was that changing tyres can change how your bike performs / rides. if that were not true then why would people use different tyres on their bikes. there would be one standard tyre for all MTB bikes!!

 

I try and focus on issues, not people. Don't worry, you are not marked.

 

Relax.

 

Perhaps paying some attention to the wording of answers will go a long way to improving the enjoyment (and understanding) of our sport.

[MintSauce]

I haven't read all the comments thoroughly but I definitely don't agree that all tyres are equal. I'm hit with a bit of disbelief that you can't tell the difference Johan. Actually, I wonder if you've ever ridden a mountain bike in your life...?

 

On many tyres there is a marked difference to the amount of traction provided in different directions. I don't think I've ever met anyone that doesn't agree.

 

Regarding the fact that the frontwheel lifts before there is loss of traction....bullsh*t. To prevent frontwheel lift you try and get the best balance possible....between keeping it down and losing traction. Certain tyres give better traction....FACT! Anyone whose spent any decent amount of time on a bike will know this.

 

 

WRT the Alpine, we recently changed out the stock WTB tyres on one such bike(I know two girls that just bought them as their first bike) and the girl said she couldn't believe the difference it made to the bike's climbing.

 

We fitted a Kenda Karma and a Maxxis Larsen.

 

So if a mere beginner whose been riding for 2 weeks can tell the difference, I have to question Mr.Bornman's experience.

 

 

 

 

[Guest Big H]

Congratulations. You get to join the club of people who have tried to pedal on ice rinks' date=' in oil baths and on slippery white lines in the old days before the paint had an abrasive added to it.

 

 

[/quote']

 

Absolute hogwash!!!!!

 

The exerpt below is from the SATCC Standard Specifications for Road and Bridgeworks indicating the three different types of paint specified.

 

Fine glass beads are sometimes placed on the wet paint to facilitate relective capabilities.

 

(i) Road-marking paint

Road-marking paint shall comply with the requirements of SABS 731 or equivalent for Type 1, Type 2 or Type 4

(ii) Retro-reflective road-marking paint

Retro-reflective road-marking paint shall comply with the requirements of Subclause 5502 and CKS 19

(iii) Plastic road-marking material

Where specified in the Project Specifications, hot-melt plastic road-marking material shall comply with the requirements of BS 3662. The binder shall be plasticised

synthetic resin and the material shall be reflectorised by mixing in 20% by mass Class A glass beads in accordance with BS 6088.

[dirtrider]

haha and for sure they adhere to the standards and specifications !!! This is SA dude , they will use PVA if nothing else is available

[E1A104]

You assume Kimberley would know road paint from PVA ....

[Guest Big H]

haha and for sure they adhere to the standards and specifications !!! This is SA dude ' date=' they will use PVA if nothing else is available[/quote']

 

As a rule this work is done by specialised sub-contractors on contract to the main contractor where new roads are built or being rehabilitated. On maintenance work in larger municipalities this work is normally scourced out and done by the same specialists.

 

I have done a series of tests to find out what type of paint will be suitable to mark out defective sections of work in road condition surveys. PVA lasted for 4 years and was in very good and visible condition untill the road was resurfaced.

[Johan Bornman]

Congratulations. You get to join the club of people who have tried to pedal on ice rinks' date=' in oil baths and on slippery white lines in the old days before the paint had an abrasive added to it.

 

 

[/quote']

 

Absolute hogwash!!!!!

 

The exerpt below is from the SATCC Standard Specifications for Road and Bridgeworks indicating the three different types of paint specified.

 

Fine glass beads are sometimes placed on the wet paint to facilitate relective capabilities.

 

 

And your point is?

 

Non-slip road marking paint has crushed ceramic or quartz chips in it.

Non-slip, reflective paint has crushed ceramic or quartz chips and glass beads in it.

Slippy, non-reflective paint has none of the above ingredients in it.

Motorcyclists successfully campaigned for non-slip paint and many municipalities have taken note of their concerns and routinely apply non-slip paint to roads when marking them.

 

 

[mbaymike]

why is it that as soon as some people start posting on a thread the whole thread goes awry and off topic.  the hubber wants to know if they should upgrade.................

[Taneesha]

 

why is it that as soon as some people start posting on a thread the whole thread goes awry and off topic.  the hubber wants to know if they should upgrade.................

 

don't worry, it is actually very funny the way the discussions sometimes go...

 

Already upgraded to cleats and shoes, will think of either changing the front shock or the tyres as soon as I got some extra cash to spent.

 

Agree it is wisdom to keep the bike longer and focus on skills and fitness first. There are still some parts on the singletrack in Tokai where I walk.

 

[Johan Bornman]

I haven't read all the comments thoroughly but I definitely don't agree that all tyres are equal. I'm hit with a bit of disbelief that you can't tell the difference Johan. Actually' date=' I wonder if you've ever ridden a mountain bike in your life...?
[/quote']

 

I think if you do read all the comments you'll find that no-one said all tyres are equal.

 

On many tyres there is a marked difference to the amount of traction provided in different directions. I don't think I've ever met anyone that doesn't agree.

 

 

No matter what the direction of the tyre' date=' if the casing is unidirectional and the rubber uniform front and back, the co-efficient of friction is the same no matter which way the tyre faces. Therefore the only differences there could be lie in mechanical adherence between tyre and substrate. These are negligent in a so-called unidirectional tyre since the pattern cannot be so much different in its two faces. But more important, mechanical adherence or interlocking of tyre and surface irregularities is higly dependent on the surface. Very few surfaces are shaped like the negative of a tyre print. It is largely moot.

Regarding the fact that the frontwheel lifts before there is loss of traction....bullsh*t. To prevent frontwheel lift you try and get the best balance possible....between keeping it down and losing traction. Certain tyres give better traction....FACT! Anyone whose spent any decent amount of time on a bike will know this.

 

In today's short wheelbase bicycles, very steep hills cause the front wheel to lift. This is easily demostrated by going up a rugby field embankment at your local school. It is also easily demonstrated that the limiting factor (other than lung capacity) in climbing these hills isn't traction, but keeping the front wheel on the ground. As soon as you move too far forwards in an attempt to keep the front wheel down, then you loose traction. However, this is not caused by lack of traction but by lack of weight on the rear wheel. The difference is subtle.

 

WRT the Alpine' date=' we recently changed out the stock WTB tyres on one such bike(I know two girls that just bought them as their first bike) and the girl said she couldn't believe the difference it made to the bike's climbing.

We fitted a Kenda Karma and a Maxxis Larsen.

So if a mere beginner whose been riding for 2 weeks can tell the difference, I have to question Mr.Bornman's experience.


[/quote']

 

I have also had people tell me they cannot believe the difference Q-Rings made...but that's another story. Anectodal evidence just doesn't cut it in the Tech Forum. You haven't defined what was limiting their climbing in the first place and tossing around the experience of "two girls" just doesn't tell me much.

 

You are always welcome to question my experience. It keeps me on my toes.

 

 

[MintSauce]

 

I haven't read all the comments thoroughly but I definitely don't agree that all tyres are equal. I'm hit with a bit of disbelief that you can't tell the difference Johan. Actually' date=' I wonder if you've ever ridden a mountain bike in your life...?

[/quote']

 

I think if you do read all the comments you'll find that no-one said all tyres are equal.

 

 

You said

 

I don't understand how some tyres can climb better than others?

That either means you don't understand how different tread patterns generate grip or you don't believe there's any difference in their performance. I assumed the latter....feel free to clarify

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On many tyres there is a marked difference to

the amount of traction provided in different directions. I don't think

I've ever met anyone that doesn't agree.

 

 

 

No matter what the direction of the tyre' date=' if the casing is

unidirectional and the rubber uniform front and back, the co-efficient

of friction is the same no matter which way the tyre faces. Therefore

the only differences there could be lie in mechanical adherence between

tyre and substrate. These are negligent in a so-called unidirectional

tyre since the pattern cannot be so much different in its two faces.

But more important, mechanical adherence or interlocking of tyre and

surface irregularities is higly dependent on the surface. Very few

surfaces are shaped like the negative of a tyre print. It is largely

moot.

[/quote']

 

Firstly, unidirectional tyres generally won't have a uniform tread pattern. They are not labelled unidirectional because of concerms regarding the integrity of the casing, but merely because the tread is designed to be more effective in a specific direction.

 

If the tread is uniform, it's not a unidirectional tyre and thus there will not be any difference whichever way you fit them.

 

Also, the surface does not have to be shaped like the tyre to effect grip. It's simply a matter of fact that on virtually any given surface a genuine unidirectional tyre will have varying differences in grip depending on which way it's installed. The only surfaces excepted being something solid like tar or cement where the difference will probably be unnoticable.

 

On something like a soft, loamy forest floor where the tread can (to varying degrees) be forced into the surface, certain tread pattern will grip better and some will slide. In the same way that an aerodynamic shape will slice a cleaner hole through the air, certain shapes of tread will slice through the surface/ground easier, commonly experience as a loss of traction.

 

 

 

Regarding the fact that the frontwheel lifts before there is

loss of traction....bullsh*t. To prevent frontwheel lift you try and

get the best balance possible....between keeping it down and losing

traction. Certain tyres give better traction....FACT! Anyone whose

spent any decent amount of time on a bike will know this.

 

In today's short wheelbase bicycles' date=' very steep hills cause the

front wheel to lift. This is easily demostrated by going up a rugby

field embankment at your local school. It is also easily demonstrated

that the limiting factor (other than lung capacity) in climbing these

hills isn't traction, but keeping the front wheel on the ground. As

soon as you move too far forwards in an attempt to keep the front wheel

down, then you loose traction. However, this is not caused by lack of

traction but by lack of weight on the rear wheel. The difference is

subtle.

[/quote']

 

You're kind of talking in circles here. Which is it in your opinion...? Lack of traction or lack of weight on the rear wheel?

 

IMO lack of weight on the back wheel causes loss of traction....it's not one or the other. The two are inextricably linked.

 

 

 

WRT the Alpine' date=' we recently changed out the

stock WTB tyres on one such bike(I know two girls that just bought them

as their first bike) and the girl said she couldn't believe the

difference it made to the bike's climbing.

 

We fitted a Kenda Karma and a Maxxis Larsen.

 

So if a mere beginner whose been riding for 2 weeks can tell the difference, I have to question Mr.Bornman's experience.

[/quote']

 

 

 

 

 

I have also had people tell me they cannot believe the difference

Q-Rings made...but that's another story. Anectodal evidence just

doesn't cut it in the Tech Forum. You haven't defined what was limiting

their climbing in the first place and tossing around the experience of

"two girls" just doesn't tell me much.

 

Anecdotal evidence it may be but she and many others have had the same experience. There wasn't anything limiting her climbing. She rode her bike with the standard tyres for 2 weeks and after the change she was stunned by how much easier the bike rolled up the hills. Many people have experienced the exact same thing when switching to different tyres.

 

If anecdotal evidence doesn't cut it, then please feel free to give us empirical scientific evidence of the statements you've made on this thread.

 

 

 

 

[GoLefty!!]

Arhhh the classic Bornman twist and twirl like a twist and twirly thing to dodge any challenge to the Borman Bible of wisdom.

 

Sure if you fit a tyre in the opposite direction it will eventualy feel the same as if it were fitted the other way around. The point is that the difference in feel is immediate. Once worn the tyre is worn and is therefore replaced.

 

Tyres are a cheap upgrade and do certainly make a big difference to how the bike feels. And that feeling provides motivation to ride again. Often that is all people are asking for when they ask questions around Upgrades.

 

The only BS in this thread Johan, is the way you condescend on anyone who does not share your point of view. Try to be a better boy ok..

[Guest Big H]

Arhhh the classic Bornman twist and twirl like a twist and twirly thing to dodge any challenge to the Borman Bible of wisdom.

 

Sure if you fit a tyre in the opposite direction it will eventualy feel the same as if it were fitted the other way around. The point is that the difference in feel is immediate. Once worn the tyre is worn and is therefore replaced.

 

Tyres are a cheap upgrade and do certainly make a big difference to how the bike feels. And that feeling provides motivation to ride again. Often that is all people are asking for when they ask questions around Upgrades.

 

The only BS in this thread Johan' date=' is the way you condescend on anyone who does not share your point of view. Try to be a better boy ok..

[/quote']

 

You are right my half a suspension forked friend...... the Knight of the Yellow Saddle, the ever so righteous, ever so humiliating, self appointed guru of all mechanical on the bicycle secrets is scribing at his utmost worst again but also the poor soul Mint Sauce is heavily into his "he said" ....... "she said" routine again.