Dura-Ace electronic in Jan 09...

[GoLefty!!]

Untested, untried technology...??!!

 

ewep where have you been the last 10yrs bruver??

 

1989, Some english wins a F1 GP in a Ferrari with an electronically controlled, hydraulically actuated sequential shift gearbox. itis problematic at first but it is perfected by 1990 and sets the std for fast accurate gearshift. The reliability issues were mostly in the hydraulics and the mechanical pump and valves doing the work. The electronics seldom failed. Easy to blame what you don;t see ,i.e. God.

 

1993 and everyone has a Semi Auto box as they are now called. In fact the electronics are controlling the suspension, gearbox as well as the engine. Again the weak link is the mechanical components; pumps, valves actuators.

 

2008, the gearboxes still use hydraulics but the twin multiplate clutches are controlled by electric servos. Don;t seem to be slowing down ferrari or maclaren much. The weak link is still the mechanical bits not the electronics.

 

With Shimano's system, the tiny stepper motors are ultra reliable. Heck 15yrs ago when I first worked with stepper motors, they were ultra reliable but ultra expensive. Today the reliability is better still but the cost has dropped.

 

The only weak link in this system is the battery. Batteries don't like being dropped or over charged or deep discharged. It's the most easily damaged component in the system. AS long as the user follows the instructions then  there is no problem.

 

I am pretty sure that the reliability will as good as the cable system.

Also the cable system will be housed in a tough conduit that will fit the bosses on your bikes frame. this will provide ample protection in the event of an accident. There is more than sufficient slack to survive crashes.

 

The system can be integrated with Shimano's Flightdek Computer. There is a new version of this that provide programmable "rides" where the user can set either;

average speed

Effort

HR zone

 

hop on the bike go ride and the Di2 will constantly change the gearing to keep the rider in the training zone. Power meter compatibility is onthe cards but I suspect that Shimano have their own power meter in the pipeline.

The release of Di2 is the first step in providing a new gen STi system for top athletes.

 

Considering that the Di2 has been under development for the past 5 yrs I think it is plenty reliable. Sure it will have issues but so can any mechanical system.

[ewep]

 

Untested' date=' untried technology...??!!

 

ewep where have you been the last 10yrs bruver??

 

1989, Some english wins a F1 GP in a Ferrari with an electronically controlled, hydraulically actuated sequential shift gearbox. itis problematic at first but it is perfected by 1990 and sets the std for fast accurate gearshift. The reliability issues were mostly in the hydraulics and the mechanical pump and valves doing the work. The electronics seldom failed. Easy to blame what you don;t see ,i.e. God.

 

1993 and everyone has a Semi Auto box as they are now called. In fact the electronics are controlling the suspension, gearbox as well as the engine. Again the weak link is the mechanical components; pumps, valves actuators.

 

2008, the gearboxes still use hydraulics but the twin multiplate clutches are controlled by electric servos. Don;t seem to be slowing down ferrari or maclaren much. The weak link is still the mechanical bits not the electronics.

 

With Shimano's system, the tiny stepper motors are ultra reliable. Heck 15yrs ago when I first worked with stepper motors, they were ultra reliable but ultra expensive. Today the reliability is better still but the cost has dropped.

 

The only weak link in this system is the battery. Batteries don't like being dropped or over charged or deep discharged. It's the most easily damaged component in the system. AS long as the user follows the instructions then  there is no problem.

 

I am pretty sure that the reliability will as good as the cable system.

Also the cable system will be housed in a tough conduit that will fit the bosses on your bikes frame. this will provide ample protection in the event of an accident. There is more than sufficient slack to survive crashes.

 

The system can be integrated with Shimano's Flightdek Computer. There is a new version of this that provide programmable "rides" where the user can set either;

average speed

Effort

HR zone

 

hop on the bike go ride and the Di2 will constantly change the gearing to keep the rider in the training zone. Power meter compatibility is onthe cards but I suspect that Shimano have their own power meter in the pipeline.

The release of Di2 is the first step in providing a new gen STi system for top athletes.

 

Considering that the Di2 has been under development for the past 5 yrs I think it is plenty reliable. Sure it will have issues but so can any mechanical system.

[/quote']

 

By all means, but I don't want to have the grouppo during "itis problematic at first"

[GoLefty!!]

I doubt it will be problematic at first. There may be a 1 in 10000 lemon but thisis true of any groupset. The old tech just has the volume for tha number to be small.

 

Shimano is a very conservative company. They will not introduce something to market that is not sorted out and if there is a problem theyfix it and introduce running changes. Dura Ace carries a 3 yr warranty so if they need to fix something the warranty will cover it.

 

I rememer when M965 XTR was introduced in 2003. I had the 2nd groupset in the UK. The First went to a magazine for review (gits!!)

For me it worked 100% for nearlytwo years and then the calipers developed an issue with the roll back seals. Imailed the Technical manager of Shimano Europe and he sentout a set of replacement calipers the next day.

Then the rightshifter developed a fault they had not encountered yet and the sent me a new set in exchange for the old set. The return precipitated a running change to the lever design. Everyone salted M965 at first but now Dual Controlon MTB's has an estblished following. It's still a fantastic product.

Of course the success of Di2 depends on how quickly our yankee frinds can learn to use the system. They couldn;t learn to use Rapid rise and tried kill it.

[DaSH82]

Will be an interesting system once all the bugs have been ironed out... will set the bar for the next gen of campag... who we all know will go one better... LOL.

[Barend de Arend]

This will become very interesting when it adds value.

 

Possibilities:

• Shift automatically based on cadence, speed and power.
• Better cable routing
• Better shifting (already moves front derailleur based on rear derailleur)
• Faster shifts (maybe)

• More shift buttons: different ones for hoods vs. drops.

Right now, what does it add?  The price is: recharge regularly (when Eskom allows it), worry about field repairs, and worry about water sealing.

 

[MintSauce]

 

no you wont

 

 

Yes I will.........really

 

 

 

 

[DaSH82]

There are alot of possibilities... and will be interesting to see if this technology takes off... but i suspect that it will take quite a while to gain the trust of the cycling public... aswell as the pro teams...

[lowracer]

I like Shimano a very innovative company not like others who rather go the extra gear route

 

HUH?????

 

shimano had a patent for a 14 speed cluster for more than 10 years now.

 

and competition in road forced shimano to have everything from 105 (or is it tiagra from next year) to be 10 speed.

 

and mtb?

[NotSoBigBen]

And at the end of the day just like Campag's 11 speed it's just to get people to buy more ......................

[dfm1]

from http://www.velonews.com/article/81107 

 

Shimano's electronic Dura-Ace

By Lennard Zinn

Posted Aug. 1' date=' 2008

Article Extras

Photos

http://www.velonews.com/files/images/Di2_GROUP.Teaser.jpg

Dura-Ace Di2

Shimano has formally announced plans to release Dura-Ace Di2, a new electronic shifting option for the all-new 7900 series Dura-Ace, in January.

Comprised of dual control shift/brake levers, front derailleur, rear derailleur, a wiring harness and battery pack, the new Dura-Ace Di2 7970 components integrate with components from the upcoming 7900 series Dura-Ace group, while adding a total of only 68 grams.

Electrically-actuated shifting eliminates cable friction and contamination. The shifters are now merely switches, which also allows for creative placement of optional remote shifters while also reducing the weight and profile of the main shifting units. For example, a rider could place remote switches out on the ends of aero bars as well as on the top of drop bars near the stem.

Derailleur movements are computer-controlled and servo motors in both front and rear derailleur create synchronized shifts.

http://www.velonews.com/files/images/ST_7970_01.Thumbnail2.jpg

The Di2 shifter: Lighter and sleeker profile

ST-7970 Dura-Ace Di2 Dual Control Levers
By eliminating mechanical shifter parts and using unidirectional carbon fiber brake lever blades, the new Dual Control lever is 155g lighter than the mechanical version. The levers are slimmer, and the ergonomics are further refined for a comfortable grip.

Wiring Harness
Except when it comes to downloading the on-board computer to a PC, the system is not wireless. It powers each derailleur through a wiring harness rather than adding the complexity of wireless transmitters and receivers. To have been wireless, each component would have required a separate battery, which would have added weight, and each receiver/transmitter would have consumed battery life at a higher rate.

The shifter wiring harness accepts an all-new FlightDeck computer (SC-7900). The new FlightDeck features heart rate, altitude, grade, cadence, estimated caloric consumption, gear position, and battery life and is directly downloadable data via a wireless connection.

http://www.velonews.com/files/images/RD_7970.Thumbnail2.jpg

The Di2 rear derailleur doesn't look like those on older electronic systems.

RD-7970 Dura-Ace Di2 Rear Derailleur
Like the 7900 mechanical derailleur, the 7970 has a new carbon fiber rear pulley cage, and the new design is compatible with wider-range cogsets, accommodating up to 27 teeth. Driven by a servo motor instead of a cable and spring, shifts are identical and precise due to the computer control unit analyzing each shift.

The rear derailleur has a similar profile to standard rear derailleurs, rather than incorporating an oversized housing containing a reciprocating notched bar driven by the upper jockey wheel, which provided shifting power for Zap and Mektronic. Already less vulnerable due to its shape, Shimano built a mechanism into the rear derailleur that allows it to move inward under impact to reduce the potential for damage in the case of a crash. After being bumped inward, cycling through the shifting a couple of times automatically re-synchronizes the shifter and rear derailleur.

http://www.velonews.com/files/images/FD_7970.Thumbnail2.jpg

The Di2 front derailleur is the brains of the operation

FD-7970 Dura-Ace Di2 Front Derailleur
The front derailleur is the ?brains? of the system. This is a departure from Mavic Zap and Mektronic systems that preceded it; these had cable-actuated front derailleurs. The integrated ultra-compact CPU not only ensures shifting precision for both the front and rear derailleurs individually, but also monitors the position of each. The front derailleur tracks the chain and requires zero manual trim while maintaining shifting speed. The front derailleur logic also performs the inward shift from the big chainring in two split-second movements to eliminate chain drop.

SM-BTR1 Dura-Ace Di2 Battery Pack
The 7.4V, high performance Lithium Ion battery is designed to deliver reliable, long life even in the worst conditions. In conditions requiring consistent and frequent shifting, the battery is capable of 1000 kilometers of use. That?s not much relative to the battery life in a bike computer, but fortunately, this battery is rechargeable. Lithium Ion technology is lighter, more compact and better performing than other battery types.

 

Shimano Dura-Ace Di2 7970 Specs

ST-7970 Dura-Ace Di2 Dual Control Levers
● Unidirectional carbon fiber lever blades reduce weight without loss of durability

http://www.velonews.com/files/images/ST_7970_02.Thumbnail2.jpg

The Di2 shifter: An ergonomic redesign

● Shifting positions mimic Dual Control with the ease of an electric switch
● Titanium clamp and fixing bolt
● Enhanced perch shape is more comfortable over longer distances
● Integrated reach adjuster provides a custom fit for even smaller hands
● Shift impulses transmitted in fractions of a second
● Revised brake cable pivot location provides better braking modulation
● Optional satellite shifter
● Wiring harness is FlightDeck ready
● 255g

RD-7970 Dura-Ace Di2 Rear Derailleur
● Carbon fiber rear pulley cage for lighter weight without loss of durability
● New geometry allows for use of 27 tooth max cog
● Servo saving feature allows derailleur body to move inward on impact to reduce or eliminate damage to the component and servo motor
● 225g

FD-7970 Dura-Ace Di2 Front Derailleur
● Integrated CPU monitors both front and rear shifting for precise and consistent derailleur alignment
● Computer integration allows the front derailleur to track the chain eliminating the need for manual trim and also eliminates chain drop when shifting inward from the big ring.
● 124g

http://www.velonews.com/files/images/SM_BT79_side.Thumbnail2.jpg

The lithium-ion battery pack holds a 1000-kilometer charge

SM-BTR1 Dura-Ace Di2 Battery
● High performance Lithium Ion composition
● Rechargeable (1.5 hours for full charge)
● Mounting bracket to easily adapt to most bikes
● Approximately 1000 kilometers of heavy use between charges - 7.4V
● 68g

SC-7900 Flight Deck Cycle Computer
● Gear indicator with virtual cadence
● Heart rate monitor
● Estimated caloric consumption
● Altitude & inclination
● Battery life indicator
● Wireless PC connection

 

 

[/quote']

 

 

This is like that cell phone thing, it will never take off

 

[GoLefty!!]

And at the end of the day just like Campag's 11 speed it's just to get people to buy more ......................

 

 

I doubt that.

 

This is introduction of new technology, not an gimmicky extra  gear.

There are real benefits being offered here even though they may be obvious at face value. A faster shift can give a sprinter the 0.1secedge they need to get that extra few cm ahead of their opponent.

There is energy saving to be had as well since the rider is not expending energy on moving a paddle lever, the battery does that for you.

 

Also at the price premium It's not positioned to be a volume seller. It is the launch of a new strategy for Shimano on which they will base their future volume groups, Ultegra and 105. Once those go Di2 it will leave Campy inthe dark ages.

 

And we all know about italian electronics...

Campag have been playing with electronic drivtain for ages and still can;t get it right. they heard about Di2 and needed to introduce something novel. their solution was to through an extra gear at the problem..

surely theycould have done better?

[gianni]

 

And at the end of the day just like Campag's 11 speed it's just to get people to buy more ......................

 

 

I doubt that.

 

This is introduction of new technology' date=' not an gimmicky extra  gear.

There are real benefits being offered here even though they may be obvious at face value. A faster shift can give a sprinter the 0.1secedge they need to get that extra few cm ahead of their opponent.

There is energy saving to be had as well since the rider is not expending energy on moving a paddle lever, the battery does that for you.

 

Also at the price premium It's not positioned to be a volume seller. It is the launch of a new strategy for Shimano on which they will base their future volume groups, Ultegra and 105. Once those go Di2 it will leave Campy inthe dark ages.

 

And we all know about italian electronics...

Campag have been playing with electronic drivtain for ages and still can;t get it right. they heard about Di2 and needed to introduce something novel. their solution was to through an extra gear at the problem..

surely theycould have done better?

[/quote']

 

 

Because the Japanese electronics are working SO well at the moment.........

 

In fact Campag has re-designed it's whole group set and it looks amazing. I saw 2 pics n the latest Pro Cycling. One showing the new Campag and the other showing the new plastic Shimano (like the pics above).   Shimano looks like a dog's dinner. Much prefer the previous version.

 

The new Campag levers look amazing and the new groupsets will be priced the same as the previous year's models unlike Shimanos now it exists / now it doesn't  carbon crankset which will cost you the same as your house.

 

A friend of mine who has run his own bike shop for 25 years and it probably the most proficient mechanic I have ever me (he has a tool for EVERY job) recently changed to Campag. He said he would never go back to Shimano.

 

He recently saw the new Campag at Colnago's factories..pretty nice apparently.

 

Should be an interesting battle with SRAM also coming out with some nice looking kit.

 

Better for us cyclists is all I can say :-)

 

[GoLefty!!]

Super Record for the same price as 2008 Record..?

In your dreams China!!

[AndreZA]

Super Record for the same price as 2008 Record..?

In your dreams China!!

 

I don't even think the "red" Record is the same price as the normal Record.

 

 

[GoLefty!!]

Super Record is looking like its going to cost around R25000-00!! thats without wheels. I think they  can keep it.