Johan Bornman Posted January 9, 2009 Posted January 9, 2009 Generally I agree with JohanB but at times' date=' not. Despite what his rulers tied together might suggest, I have real world experince.About a year ago I swithed from a ali hardtail (Yeti) to a Ti (Erikson). Almost all other components were the same, particulary wheels and tyres.The ride difference between the two in worlds apart. The Ali is super stiff and transmits every single bump in the road to your body. The Ti is very plush in absorbing trail vibration and small bumps yet still feels very very lively. It way well crack in time but is the miracle element when it comes to mtb frames.There is no way I would have done epic on the Yeti hardtail but it was a pleasure (90% of the time) on the Ti.[/quote'] I don't mind you disagreeing. But I would like you to explain where in that frame you think the flexing happens that absorbs the small bumps. Also, be a bit more specific and describe what "lively" means.
Racer X Posted January 9, 2009 Posted January 9, 2009 I ride a Ti HT and must admit that I love it. True it may all be psychological but at the end of the day I reckon it's a far more forgiving ride than aluminium.
Yang Posted January 9, 2009 Posted January 9, 2009 No it's not metaphysics (one word). We're intepreting his question differently - he asked about 'softer' you're thinking Flex' date=' I'm thinking overall ride feel. My full carbon mtb definately felt 'softer' or 'deader' than my aluminium ones. And he was asking about "Titanium Ride Feel".If you can't answer an honest question without being condescending, don't bother. [/quote'] Netiquette lets us overlook the odd typo or spelling error but doesn't allow us to omit capitals, punctuation or inner-circle abbreviations no-one understands. Since you so dilligently point out my mistake, I dearly hope all your posts are clean. You may embarrass yourself soon. I stand by my interpretation of softer. Softer, as is used in softer suspension, or softer pillows mean one thing and one thing only. It has nothing to do with vibrations. I think my answer was honest and to the point. If you don't like me or my posts, twitlist me and be done with it. Have a nice day. DeltaOscar, congratulations. You have been JB'd!!! Don't take it too hard.
Christie Posted January 9, 2009 Posted January 9, 2009 How about stays which have a degree of flex engineered into them: profiling/butting' date=' or differing lay up for composites? How about how different materials absorb different frequencies in different ways?[/quote'] The different "feel" because of material is all in the mind & ear. In the series of structures/components between rider and ground, the tyres and saddle are by far the least stiff, followed by suspension on mtbs. Stays need to have a massive amount of flex designed into them to make a difference (Cannondale Scalpel, for example) Christie2009-01-09 12:07:04
1kTT Posted January 9, 2009 Posted January 9, 2009 ?I don't mind you disagreeing.? But I would like you to explain where in that frame you think the flexing happens that absorbs the small bumps. Also' date=' be a bit more specific and describe what "lively" means.?[/quote']Luckily for me, I dont require scientific proof when it comes to choosing bikes. ?I ride them and if I like them then they are good for me, far more an art than a science. ?I have been blessed to have owned and/or done reasonable milage on at least 50 bikes from almost all disciplines or so over the past 20 years so I think that I have a pretty good sample to draw from. ?I am not alone in finding Ti soaks up road vibrations- a google search will reveal 100's of articles including 'elastic modulus' which sounds pretty scientific to me ;-)I am not sure exactly how to explain liveliness and certainly cant do it in the scientific language that you prefer. ?The best way I can do is that the bike feels, springy, fresh and alive. ? When you stand on the pedals- they seem to want to jump forward. ?"Dead feeling" bikes I have ridden that come to mind are the cervelo soloist carbon, the Lotus superbike and an old kestral (common theme seems to carbon monocoque) as well as a very old vitus ali. ?Lively bikes are my current road frame, the cannondale six13 and a titanium colnago.
Johan Bornman Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 Luckily for me' date=' I dont require scientific proof when it comes to choosing bikes. I ride them and if I like them then they are good for me, far more an art than a science. [/quote'] Maybe I am cursed. It would be nice to sometimes just believe and not have to search for the root of the truth....but not likely. I am not alone in finding Ti soaks up road vibrations- a google search will reveal 100's of articles including 'elastic modulus' which sounds pretty scientific to me ;-) Sheer numbers of believers' date=' seniority, credentials, tenure or decibels don't persuade me. I like to look at the facts and analyse them. I am not sure exactly how to explain liveliness and certainly cant do it in the scientific language that you prefer. Actually, plain English is good. If you can't explain it in plain English, chances are that you don't understand it in the first place. The best way I can do is that the bike feels' date=' springy, fresh and alive. When you stand on the pedals- they seem to want to jump forward. [/quote'] The problem I have with this is obvious. Alive and fresh. Sounds like a fish market. As for springy, I can identify with that. OK, so some bikes are springy and some not. I am with you. Also, some bikes want to jump forward - I'm with you. However, that implies that some bikes don't want to jump forward when you push the pedals. I have a problem with that since there are no energy losses in any acceptable athletic bike that would cause them to not want to move forward. Unless it has huge mass, a very inefficient drive-train or some other retarding force, they all want to jump forward. "Dead feeling" bikes I have ridden that come to mind are the cervelo soloist carbon' date=' the Lotus superbike and an old kestral (common theme seems to carbon monocoque) as well as a very old vitus ali. Lively bikes are my current road frame, the cannondale six13 and a titanium colnago.[/quote'] There's a paradox in here. Arguably the Vitus was the springiest of the lot, yet you now classify it as dead feeling. See where I'm going? Sometimes springy is lively, sometimes springy is dead. As for the other bikes, they are clearly at the top end of stiffness yet they by your definition didn't give you that feeling that they want to jump on command. Not many people go into this with an open mind, but I'd like to appeal to your analytical side. Leave the extremes out of the equation - the Vitus at the flexible end and say the Cervelo at the stiff end. Don't you think the accoustic feedback from the bike subliminally translates to properties you'd like to assign to the bike? Recently Christie posted a link to an interesting experiment where different frames were all fitted with the same components. The frames were heavily disguised with duct tape and old bicycle tubes. No-one could distinguish between steel, titanium, aluminium or carbon.
JPW# Posted January 10, 2009 Author Posted January 10, 2009 1 real advantage of Ti is, you wont get cracks and dings in your frame so easily when the rocks hit, thus, I'm busy saving heheJPW#2009-01-10 01:25:04
steveO:K Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 wow!!! Sometimes i drink a wine and i really like it.If you asked me to identify all the characteristics of that wine I probably wouldn't be able to, however, that doesn't change the fact that i like the wine anyway. I have owned, ridden and tested in excess of 100 bicycles over the years, including numerous ti bikes(ht,st and road).Currently i have a number of road bikes including a merlin extralight titanium. In the area in which i live the roads are ordinary, at best, and there is a pronounced amount of vibration/road buzz( excuse the lack of a more scientific terminology).I feel far less vibration on the merlin than on my cannondale system six and therefore some people might think "soft"which is admitedly not the best description as the bike feels anything but soft.It's just more comfy. This advantageous characteristic of ti, hovever, is limited to road riding( in my opinion).I have had a number of ti mtb's and, in truth, they are no better than a high end aluminium frame i.t.o. RIDE QUALITY. i hope that answers the original question which relates to the ride quality of ti crackajack2009-01-10 02:18:11
DeltaOscar Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 No it's not metaphysics (one word). We're intepreting his question differently - he asked about 'softer' you're thinking Flex' date=' I'm thinking overall ride feel. My full carbon mtb definately felt 'softer' or 'deader' than my aluminium ones. And he was asking about "Titanium Ride Feel".If you can't answer an honest question without being condescending, don't bother. [/quote'] Netiquette lets us overlook the odd typo or spelling error but doesn't allow us to omit capitals, punctuation or inner-circle abbreviations no-one understands. Since you so dilligently point out my mistake, I dearly hope all your posts are clean. You may embarrass yourself soon. I stand by my interpretation of softer. Softer, as is used in softer suspension, or softer pillows mean one thing and one thing only. It has nothing to do with vibrations. I think my answer was honest and to the point. If you don't like me or my posts, twitlist me and be done with it. Have a nice day. DeltaOscar, congratulations. You have been JB'd!!! Don't take it too hard. Thanks Yang, but JB's response means F@*k all to me.This is supposed to be a discussion, not merely a handing down of unchallenged established gospel.
brussel Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 Wow this another fun forum post!!! my 2 cents: as a top end road rider some years back I was privileged to ride top end steel, alu, and titanium bikes. The elastic modulus of aluminium is the lowest and this means the least amount of energy is stored in flexed tubes on the frame when under load. Steel and titanium store more elsastic energy, springing back harder when the force comes off...this is is what creates that lively feel that steel and titanium have. think of oscar pistorius's carbon spring legs. same idea. Add to that the small diameter tubes used in titanium bikes and the elastic modulus and the flex that one gets in the frame tends to eat up road vibration pretty well. On my Merlin I could get lots of front derailleur rub in an all out sprint, but still won a good number of them on the bike. As for all day comfort nothing could beat it. So my 2 cents worth is Ti is the shizz....but it is very expensive and when it cracks it's really exciting. Merlin had a bad batch of argon gas and mine broke at the boss mounts for the shifters on the down tube things got very floppy very quickly!! They replaced under lifetime guarantee tho.
1kTT Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 Don't you think the accoustic feedback from the bike subliminally translates to properties you'd like to assign to the bike??Recently Christie posted a link to an interesting experiment where different frames were all fitted with the same components. The frames were heavily disguised with duct tape and old bicycle tubes. No-one could distinguish between steel' date=' titanium, aluminium or carbon.?[/quote']it is posible that accoustics influence but my most recent bike change (ali to Ti MTB) I didnt really notice any different sound but ride is world apart.i saw the link to the experiment. ?i wonder if what they meant was that people could not identify which frame was made of which material (I can completely understadn that), rather than to identify which frame they preferred or to feel differences between them.
Wyatt Earp Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 Thanks Yang, but JB's response means F@*k all to me. This is supposed to be a discussion, not merely a handing down of unchallenged established gospel.
JPW# Posted January 10, 2009 Author Posted January 10, 2009 Ok so the general feel of the hubbers are that Ti gives a "softer feel" to their ride, that's basically all I wanted to hear, thanks hubbers.
1kTT Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 Ok so the general feel of the hubbers are that Ti gives a "softer feel" to their ride' date=' that's basically all I wanted to hear, thanks hubbers.[/quote'] i would better describe it as transmitting less / absorbing some of the harshness out of trail while still feeling responsive and lively.
Christie Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 it is posible that accoustics influence but my most recent bike change (ali to Ti MTB) I didnt really notice any different sound but ride is world apart.i saw the link to the experiment. i wonder if what they meant was that people could not identify which frame was made of which material (I can completely understadn that)' date=' rather than to identify which frame they preferred or to feel differences between them. [/quote'] The experiment found that the 25 riders that took part in the test could not tell the difference between different masked road frames made of ti, carbon, alu and steel fitted with the same wheels & components. When asked to give the frames a comfort rating from 1-5, the average rating differed very little, from 2.3 to 2.7 The frame they rated with the best comfort was an oversize aluminium frame. Bottom line is that the effect of frame material on ride quality is so small it is not detectable by human senses.
Slowbee Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 ok so to continue this idea of soft and flex and stiffness etc. When someone says a bike is very stiff, like a cervelo, what exactly does that mean? How do I translate that into a cycling experience ?
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