Ability Seeding

[Wonder Woman]

But out of curiosity' date=' why would someone actually go and ride SA's if they don't think they have a chance of winning??[/quote']
Same reason why certain individuals do the Epic/Comrades/Iron-man even though they know they will not finish - to experience it.

No seriously, it's a good measure as to your real ability, or in my case, the lack thereof.

 

I disagree with you here, the Epic/ Comrades/ Iron man have a lot more to it than just winning. You get scenery, a challenge etc etc.

 

Sa's is purely there for your national championships. I think like Worlds etc they should have entry races and if you don't make the cut off then sorry for you. Will make it more the presige it should be, not just another race.

 

Like for instance, you had to come top 10 in certain comptetitions for gymnastics to be able to compete in Nationals.

 

Or you need to make certain crietria etc to get into the TdF.

 

 

Wonder Woman2009-06-01 06:54:58

[Trubie]

I dont know much about cycling admin, but it makes sense to have provincial champs, pick teams to go to SA's, and have the best competing.

Now it seems that anyone with a racing licence can go ride SA's no matter where you ended eg in yr provincial champs. Do you even have to compete in the champs?

Why do they award provincial colours? and on what basis is it done?

 

If you can afford to go to SA's , you cn go and ride. The sizes of the fields are laughable, eg u/10 girls - I see one finisher???, etc..

 

SA's should be a prestigious event, and a highlight on the calender.

 

[mallo]

SA's can be entered by any Dick Tom or Harry who has a valid racing license and there certainly is many who should not even have a cyclosport license in their pockets judging from some races in gauteng amongst the vets.

 

 

 

AM seeding of 1.4 and Piet M 18.9 racing in same cat, does it make sense?

[IanJ]

I dont know much about cycling admin' date=' but it makes sense to have provincial champs, pick teams to go to SA's, and have the best competing.

[/quote']

 

This to me is the best suggestion, I am sure other sports work this way. Chose a provincial team and send that team to nationals. Would also prevent larger clubs having an advantage over single riders or smaller teams. The guys from one province would ride as a team.

 

 

[Ox_Wagon]

The problem, as I understand it being a back of the pack cyclist, is that some people "buy" better seeding by taking out a racing license instead of cyclosport even though they are unable to keep up with their age group. 

 

So the idea is to have one system only based on seeding or only allowing a set number of people into the racing classes based of seeding.  So for example only the top 100, according to seeding in a age group, will be allowed to buy a race license.    <?: prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

 

Ox_Wagon2009-06-01 07:18:20

[Trubie]

I dont know much about cycling admin' date=' but it makes sense to have provincial champs, pick teams to go to SA's, and have the best competing.

[/quote']

 

This to me is the best suggestion, I am sure other sports work this way. Chose a provincial team and send that team to nationals. Would also prevent larger clubs having an advantage over single riders or smaller teams. The guys from one province would ride as a team.

 

 

 

In Athletics it works that way, duathlons also, well at least when I was doing it many moons ago. That is alos the meet, where the National teams get selected etc, but seems in Road Cycling , doesnt need to work like that. Have some of your nat Champs week following the only multi day stage event, 2 days after the World Fun ride champs, and then amost 3 months later, have the rest of the champs....

 

It should be an honour to go and represent your province and not yr club at the Nat Champs....

 

  

[Trubie]

The problem' date=' as I understand it being a back of the pack cyclist, is that some people "buy" better seeding by taking out a racing license instead of cyclosport even though they are unable to keep up with their age group. 

 

So the idea is to have one system only based on seeding or only allowing a set number of people into the racing classes based of seeding.  So for example only the top 100, according to seeding in a age group, will be allowed to buy a race license.    <?: prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

 

[/quote']

 

I cant see it work if for instance the top 100 can buy the racing licence, because that top 100 will change weekly, so i would rather say everyone who wants to buy a racing licence can do so, but only top 100/200 get seeded in the racing cats for a race.

How often do you see Vets being caught by open bunches, who start long after them. I was warming up for a race earlier this year, and saw a vet being dropped less than 1km from the start!!

 

 

[IanJ]

Some races enforce a minimum seeding for entry into licenced categories but it is mainly the bigger races where they tend to be over subscribed.

 

[Frosty]

 

I dont know much about cycling admin' date=' but it makes sense to have provincial champs, pick teams to go to SA's, and have the best competing.

[/quote']This to me is the best suggestion, I am sure other sports work this way. Chose a provincial team and send that team to nationals. Would also prevent larger clubs having an advantage over single riders or smaller teams. The guys from one province would ride as a team.

More participants = more money. To enter SA's it cost R170 per person (1 discipline) x 479 entrants (according to the starting list) = R81,430.00 (and that doesn't include those that entered both TT and Road, or 2 road categories - AM wasn't the only one).

 

I heard, through Liefie Day (not personally I must say), that Klerksdorp is bidding to host SA's next year and are putting up a considerable rand amount to host the event for 2 years. So, until our governing body sorts it's affairs out, any plonker can enter SA's.

 

[Pundit]

the provincial team suggestion has limitations - in the sense that some provinces have more strength in depth. you get a strong province then excluding potential race winners and weaker provinces still bringing relatively weak riders along. i don't see a major issue with the format as it is currently is - the sport is pretty small the more the merrier, although why not an option to send provincial teams as well as allow other riders to enter as well (individually)

[amateur]

i'm confused is this about a seeding system for all races or a seeding system that applies to SA's??

[Trubie]

I dont know much about cycling admin' date=' but it makes sense to have provincial champs, pick teams to go to SA's, and have the best competing.
[/quote']This to me is the best suggestion, I am sure other sports work this way. Chose a provincial team and send that team to nationals. Would also prevent larger clubs having an advantage over single riders or smaller teams. The guys from one province would ride as a team.

More participants = more money. To enter SA's it cost R170 per person (1 discipline) x 479 entrants (according to the starting list) = R81,430.00 (and that doesn't include those that entered both TT and Road, or 2 road categories - AM wasn't the only one).

I heard, through Liefie Day (not personally I must say), that Klerksdorp is bidding to host SA's next year and are putting up a considerable rand amount to host the event for 2 years. So, until our governing body sorts it's affairs out, any plonker can enter SA's.

 

The R part makes sense why they allow anyone to enter.

If that is the issue, allow provinces like CGA to enter as many teams as they want limted to say 5 or so, it happens in Cross Country.

 

Its just a sad state of affairs....

[Trubie]

the provincial team suggestion has limitations - in the sense that some provinces have more strength in depth. you get a strong province then excluding potential race winners and weaker provinces still bringing relatively weak riders along. i don't see a major issue with the format as it is currently is - the sport is pretty small the more the merrier' date=' although why not an option to send provincial teams as well as allow other riders to enter as well (individually)[/quote']

 

Agreed, any system is bound to have limitations. If a prov feels/knows they do not have the depth in a cat, then dont pick a team. The whole idea, as far as I am concerned, of National Champs is to crown the best riders in each cat a National winners. To wear the coloured armbands for rest of yr riding life, and knwo you only had to beat 5 people or you were the only rider - doesnt do justice does it?

This is the main event on the Cycling clander for the year - suppose to be, but its being allowed to be downgraded. Go look at the results on CSA site, some of the finishers were ages behind the winners. They obviously did not deserve to be there. But they could afford it, and can say the rode SA's, never mind I finished an hour after the winner.

[Canaris]

the answer lies in actually reading the UCI rules.

Firstly, cycling is a TEAM sport.

A team's seeding or ranking is based on the total UCI points of all the individual riders added up.  These points are allocated by the number of placings the rider acheives in a seasons races.  Therefore, in order to be a cat one team or a PRO TOUR team, you need to attract the best riders (yet you still have some scope to include newer riders).  This system protects the riders (who have to perform to place in a team) as well as ensures that the riders race as a team as well.

Secondly, cycling is a team sport. 

If you ride for a strong team chances are you will get better results.  Also you may be expected to sacrifice yourself for the team once in a while.  So individual seeding based on race times is actually rather irrelevant.

 

Thirdly, cycling is a TEAM sport.

 

If you are a young talent, an old experienced rider, or a team player, you will always find yourself in a team that is "stronger" than your seeding, because you are important for team success.

 

So in terms of "Ability" seeding.  This needs to be done within the teams that race within the club, and not by some mathematic equation based on something as unreliable as race times.  Cycling is far more complicated than that.  It is an insult to the sport to even think that you arte only as good as your "seeding".

 

Oops, in RSA clubs don't race as teams.  In fact we are all so self centred that this whole argument makes no sense.  The idea of being part fo a team, INSANE.

[Frosty]

 

the provincial team suggestion has limitations - in the sense that some provinces have more strength in depth. you get a strong province then excluding potential race winners and weaker provinces still bringing relatively weak riders along. i don't see a major issue with the format as it is currently is - the sport is pretty small the more the merrier' date=' although why not an option to send provincial teams as well as allow other riders to enter as well (individually)[/quote']

 

Agreed, any system is bound to have limitations. If a prov feels/knows they do not have the depth in a cat, then dont pick a team. The whole idea, as far as I am concerned, of National Champs is to crown the best riders in each cat a National winners. To wear the coloured armbands for rest of yr riding life, and knwo you only had to beat 5 people or you were the only rider - doesnt do justice does it?

This is the main event on the Cycling clander for the year - suppose to be, but its being allowed to be downgraded. Go look at the results on CSA site, some of the finishers were ages behind the winners. They obviously did not deserve to be there. But they could afford it, and can say the rode SA's, never mind I finished an hour after the winner.

Just because certain individuals finished ages behind the winner does not mean they don't deserve to be there... take Martin Atterbury as an example, defending champion in 35-39, and was blown out the back and finished 26 minutes down.

 

[The Crazy German]

    

 

How often do you see Vets being caught by open bunches' date=' who start long after them. I was warming up for a race earlier this year, and saw a vet being dropped less than 1km from the start!!

 

 

[/quote']

 

So?

 

That happens.

 

I have been shed out of the back within the first 5 k's several times. You can have a bad day or a route that doesn't suit you. This does't even mean you can't perform.

 

I have ben the 2nd one to drop out of PPA elite league bunch within the first 5 k's, well in that same race I only got caught with 30m to go and finished top 10.

 

Its not about when you drop its about how often you get back.

 

Sometimes you can get dropped 5 or ten times and still win the event