IS THIS CHEATING??

[Karl Beaton]

No issue if the person swaps at the start of a race. Not fair if the rider swops because they are tired during a race ... then DNF

[Daxiet]

 

Brett, this definetly ticks me off! Fully understand what you are getting at.

 

The long route rider who pulls out of the long route and finishes (crosses the finish line) after the official winner will have an assumed time for the full route even though he has done a boat load less kms.  If he crosses the line before the official winner it is an easy DQ.

 

Seen this in a number of races that share portions of a route. Yes they knows they've cheated, but when you are going out there for personal achievement and these chaps get placed ahead of you illegally it is frustrating, and you never know how many do it.

 

So in short the only way to elimintate it is to at the furtherest point on the route have timing mats or hand held machines (checkpoint). I understand you logistical issue in the Illovo race, but it is the only real way to give riders the peace of mind that the results are accurate. The alternative is to not share routes, or like Hill 2 Hill race from point A to point B.

 

For those not in the know. The Illovo race did have seeded batches and race times will go towards ROAG seeding system. So cheaters would boost their seeding indexes and at the next race possibly Hill 2 Hill these chaps will possibly be blocking your route because they are seeded above their ability.

 

Riders know very well not to cross the finish if they have not completed the full course, those who do chose to none the less cross the line lack honour. Hard line, but true.

 

Daxiet2009-08-04 05:26:13

[Frosty]

The reason most races don't use an intermediate timing mat is the cost involved. It can be as high as R35000 for one extra mat.

 

[bored girl]

 

 

 

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the problem comes when riders dont tell anybody!! riders who enter 60 and only do 40 and then dont tell anybody are all getting better results' date=' possibly prizes and very contentiously - better seedings!!

 

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[/quote']

 

 

 

I can use Babbas as an example - we get different colour number boards for the long and short distance. They know how long it should take for the long distance to be completed so anyone that comes in before that gets a DNF.

 

 

 

I entered the long one some time back and only did the short. I didn't cross the line, went around the timing place and they still came after me and took my number down and hence the DNF which shows next to my name from a few months back. So i think the organisers should know how long it will take for the top guys to go around their course and not give anyone with a faster time a prize....I mean come on....really? Someone actually pulls that off?

[Gansbay]

 

the problem comes when riders dont tell anybody!! riders who enter 60 and only do 40 and then dont tell anybody are all getting better results' date=' possibly prizes and very contentiously - better seedings!!

 

 

[/quote']

I can use Babbas as an example - we get different colour number boards for the long and short distance. They know how long it should take for the long distance to be completed so anyone that comes in before that gets a DNF.

I entered the long one some time back and only did the short. I didn't cross the line, went around the timing place and they still came after me and took my number down and hence the DNF which shows next to my name from a few months back. So i think the organisers should know how long it will take for the top guys to go around their course and not give anyone with a faster time a prize....I mean come on....really? Someone actually pulls that off?

 

At our race we had two guys who changed the minds during the race - we had a marshall take down numbers at the split and they phoned the numbers through to the finish (we used different colours for the two routes).  Both guys came and informed us that they changed routes!

 

At the Hoekwil race a few years back there was someone who did the shorter route but still claimed his prize (2nd or 3rd? can't remember the detail) in the longer route. We debated whether we should lodge a complaint or not, but as we needed to get back we opted not to - something we should have done.

 

So if the riders let the organisers know no problem - maybe give them an adjusted time, but if they don't then definite disqualification.

[bored girl]

I don't want an adjusted time. I don't want a result in the short distance if I've entered the long one. It's no one's fault but my own if I can't finish a silly 70km race....but then that's me

[Canaris]

Riders starting one race and then changing their minds and doing a shorter race is becoming a REAL problem!!

 

effectively this is CHEATING' date=' or am i over reacting??

 

personally, i understand if somebody gets to a certain point and then doesnt feel good etc and decides to do a shorter race (you never get people doing the longer race!!). but then if you do this, make sure you dont cross the finish line.

 

maybe people are unaware of the timing and results chaos this causes when people finish a race they are not entered into. then on top of it all, people STILL COLLECT A PRIZE FOR A RACE THEY HAVE NOT FINISHED. that is shocking form!!

 

how can we stop this??

[/quote']

 

THere is always a tendency to "bail" during a race and finish a bad day early.  So long as it does not affect the standings (ie prize winners) there is no real ethical problem.  However, entering in one catergory and changing in mid race in order to get prize money or win placings (gain any advantage) is fraudulant and unethical.  Once the enteries have closed and the race started you are ethically obliged to "race" what you have contracted to race.  If you stop racing (bail) then getting off the course as soon as possible is the most fair option.

 

So to answer:

 

If you bail from the longer distance, get of the course ASAP, and stop affecting the outcome of both the short and long races.  This is fair. 

 

If you downgrade from the long race in order to race (or affect the results of) the shorter race, (either during the race or after the starting list has been finalised) THIS IS CHEATING.  You have mislead your fellow competitors in both races, and have negatively affected/ influenced the outcome of both races. 

 

The third option is that you are a pace setter for the long race and after you have burnt you bail.  That is team tactics, where ethics, fairness and good sportmanship imoves intoa grey zone coloured by its own values and rules.

[Bos]

well as far as MTB goes' date=' I dont see any problem with it - as long as you notify the organizers that you did the sorter route.

 

its not like there is bunch riding in mtb, so no advantage is gained by starting with the long route okes

[/quote']

 

Appart from a situation like Boshendal challenge, where the seeded bunch of the long route gets no congestion or much less and the short race will have to sit behind the slow riders of all 4 start groups of the 55km race.

 

I know Im being anal, but in such a case it would make a difference of probably 15 minutes in your time.

 

so a DNF would be acceptable

[Pantani]

First things first... Forgive yourself and move on...

 

http://moneyning.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/move-on.jpg

 

 

 

[Canaris]

well as far as MTB goes' date=' I dont see any problem with it - as long as you notify the organizers that you did the sorter route.

 

its not like there is bunch riding in mtb, so no advantage is gained by starting with the long route okes

[/quote']

 

Appart from a situation like Boshendal challenge, where the seeded bunch of the long route gets no congestion or much less and the short race will have to sit behind the slow riders of all 4 start groups of the 55km race.

 

I know Im being anal, but in such a case it would make a difference of probably 15 minutes in your time.

 

so a DNF would be acceptable

 

Here I agree with Bos.  A race is between the riders in a starting group.  So if you start in A bunch you can only compare yourself to the other riders in that bunch.  Trying to compare results across seeding groups is like comparing apples with oranges (only neotel does that)  Also in all fairness if you are riding licenced you should be in a team.

 

So if you start the long distance you should not fall back to do the short distance, but rather DNF by cycling the shortest route back to your car or beer tent.  It is good manners to get off the route as fast as possible.

[Trubie]

I would say it is cheating when:

- the rider gets an unfair advantage out of it, ie. better seeding, better result (maybe win a prize), different/better medal or handout

If non of the above , WTF?

 

[Andyr249]

If you enter the long race, do the long race. If you abandon during the race, wait for the sweep vehicle. Cheapest option is to have an extra couple of marshalls (which would make the marshall point safer) who then stop the riders and take numbers before allowing them to continue. You can't rely on the riders to not cross the timing mats and this is actually sometimes difficult if there are barriers etc from a few hundred metres out. The finish areas tend to be designed to avoid congestion at the finish and to keep the flow of riders moving from before the finish line/timing mats, past the medals and drink and on to a dispersal area. Another option, and probably the best, is to have a separate finish for the long and short routes. Then if you start the long route and turn off you can go through the short route finish. As you started before the short route official time you get a DNF/DQ. Ideally, there should just be the one long route. That would solve many problems.

[AndreZA]

What everybody forgets is that everybody are just funriders and who cares if you come in in 300th or 315th place. They've got their money and that is that.

[AndreZA]

First things first... Forgive yourself and move on...http://moneyning.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/move-on.jpg

 

 

 

 

maybe this guy must go and see Dr N.A. Ndos.

[Andyr249]

What everybody forgets is that everybody are just funriders and who cares if you come in in 300th or 315th place. They've got their money and that is that.

 

Yes, they are fun riders but if they suddenly start getting times of the not-so-funriders because they enter long and do short and then get seeded with the not-so-funriders? Then some A bunch riders gets dropped down to B bunch because of that? If I was the riders getting seeded down because of those "funriders" I would not be the happiest guy around. And A and B bunches are not "funriders", they are there to race.

There needs to be a greater separation between the two distances.

[Canaris]

What everybody forgets is that everybody are just funriders and who cares if you come in in 300th or 315th place. They've got their money and that is that.

 

Yes' date=' they are fun riders but if they suddenly start getting times of the not-so-funriders because they enter long and do short and then get seeded with the not-so-funriders? Then some A bunch riders gets dropped down to B bunch because of that? If I was the riders getting seeded down because of those "funriders" I would not be the happiest guy around. And A and B bunches are not "funriders", they are there to race.

There needs to be a greater separation between the two distances.

[/quote']

 

there  is only one place to race for, that is first place.  If you are not racing either to come first or to get one of your team mates first, then you are not actually racing.  Racing is an attitude, that demands total commitment in training, total attention to detail in race preparation and total sacrifice in competition.   (I can develop this further, but that would take alot of philosphy and psychology to explain).  Short of this you are a fun rider, in fact we all should be fun riders, there is something admireable in doing things for fun.  There is something honourable in accepting that life is not as simple as "Winners" make it.  Life is complex, accounts must be paid, wives and children supported and money earnt.  The important thing is to realise that before you get too serious (and dope, ext) that it may not be worth it all in the end.  Sacrificing a balanced and complete life, just to say you are an A bunch rider?  Even worse, is to trick yourself and others into believing you are better than you really are by cheating or by "Dropping distances" at the races, or even start as a licenced rider knowing that you will be dropped in the first 10km, just so you can start and finish earlier.  All these efforts are only fooling yourself, and you still have to live with yourself in the end.