MTB Spokes

[Plentipotential]

Wheel is out of true, phone LBS to ask if they can sort it, guy says how many kilos on the bike, 5000 I say. He says I should replace the spokes?

 

Is this good advice? DT Swiss hub on Mavic rims. Is there anything that lasts longer than 6 months on a MTB?

[splat]

Has the lbs even seen the wheel?

How badly out of true is it?

How can he make a call like that?

 

I wouldn't even buy tubes from a shop that dishes out advice like that.

[splat]

Just another thought.

Have you had to had the wheel trued before?

Any broken spokes recently?

 

I know that after breaking a few spokes in a short time, its often a good idea to just rebuild the whole wheel with new spokes.

[Daxiet]

Sounds really odd to me making such a recommendation over the phone. 5000kms is not that much. Find a new LBS, current one sounds keen for some cash.

[Plentipotential]

Thanks for the replies. Some clarity, no broken spokes, not too badly out and not my usual shop, but had to go there to get some Assos as my usual LBS does not stock them. Usual shop said I should bring the wheel in and get the spokes tightened up. However the other shop made a good point about revolutions and tension and so on so I thought it worth asking the question as I am a bit inexperienced in these matters.

Training for the Epic and would not like to be miles from home and the wheel colapses. Also have a weeks break coming up in a few weeks time so I will use it to strip the bike and get it all sorted for the next stint of training.

[Groentrui]

I feel your pain ... After trying to deal with shops to repair/build wheels (long story, won't bother with details), I decided to rebuild my own wheels. Came across this website, where you can buy a book (guide)  teaching you to do it properly. Bike shops make it sound like rocket science, but actually it is not that difficult.

 

I see you struggle with a MTB wheel. Somewhere in the guide the guy (Roger Musson) explains that factory build wheels tend to go out of true quite quickly. He recommends rebuilding the wheel ASAP to not have problems. He states as well that a well built wheel won't "buckle" easily . He builds wheels for the some professional DH teams, so I figure he knows what he talks about. Check his site at http://www.wheelpro.co.uk

 

One last thing is spoke prices. My LBS qoutes me R10 a spoke (which can be whatever brand they have lying around), which works out at R720 if I need to rebuild two wheels. So I saw on Chain Reaction Cycles, that you can buy DT Swiss Champion Double Butted spokes at R3 per piece. Add the P&P and I bought it in the end for around R5 per spoke. (OK, I did buy some other spares as well, but it also worked out way cheaper than buying local)

[adogshow]

 

 

 

Is there anything that lasts longer than 6 months on a MTB?

 

er, no.

adogshow2009-08-07 02:06:17

[Johan Bornman]

A wheel built with quality double-butted spokes by a competent wheelbuilder can last a very long time. I have a set here I estimate has seen 100 000 kms. I've never broken a single spoke on it and I have only had to true it once or twice. It has been re-built twice, when I replaced the rims but each time I've used the same spokes, I only did a rim transplant.

 

A whole bunch of issues come to play with this type of question and I'll dwell on some of the important ones.

 

If the wheel was stress-relieved after building, the spokes will last almost indefinitely. If the wheelbuilder doesn't understand what stress relieving is, find another one.

 

Mountain bike spokes last just as long as spokes on other types of bikes.  There is no fundemental difference. Mileage is the weakening factor, not bumps.

 

Spokes break from metal fatigue, not tension.

 

But back to the question, should the wheel be re-built? Sometimes yes. Some MTB wheels are so ingrained with dirt that you cannot tension the spokes without removing each and every nipple, clean the spoke thread, oil it and replace the nipples with new ones. This, in spite of the fact that you just wanted it trued a little bit.

 

This photo is a good example of nipples that are so dirty and so corroded, that they nipples cannot be turned. I had to cut several of the spokes out.   In addition to the sif wheels what were obviously never cleaned, the wheelbuilder also used loctite to make subsequent fixes impossible.

 

 

It was impossible to turn any of the nipples. In addition, the rim is rubbish, a X819 with love-to-corrode-and-crack nipple collars. In order to turn the nipples, the spokes had to be cut and the collars removed in order to remove the nipples. In the end, the collars had to be cleaned and lubricated before replacement. The threads inside the rim had started to crack and a week or two after the fresh rebuild, the rim would have cracked and I would have had the blame.

 

The solution is to replace the rim, spokes and nipples. As it is, the hub was badly abused as well, with rough bearings. Throw the wheel away I say. No, says the customer, it can be fixed.

 

The customer is always right, right?

 

Some guidelines for good wheels.

 

1) Start with a good quality hub.

2) Choose a standard rim with steel eyelets.

3) Build with standard double-butted spokes.

4) Use oil, not loctite on the nipples and threads.

5) Use tension, not loctite to hold the spokes in place.

5) Stress relieve the wheel.

 

If you do the following, then your wheel can be fixed easily, and cheaply, by anybody, anywhere.

 

[Cassie]

Nice post Johan!!

 

I'm quite the novice when it comes to wheels / spokes & truing...will definately leave that to the "experts".

 

BUT, can / should one oil the nipples every so often? In order to ensure that they do not seize with time and can be worked on after a year or several 1000's of km later?

 

What preventative maintenace can you suggest when cleaning the bike i.e wash the wheels?

 

 

[splat]

JB, I have wheels with 819 rims.

 

How do I clean them so that they don't get gunked up?

 

As far as I am aware, the nipples and collars were installed with an anti seize agent of sorts and not oil (or loctite for that matter).

[Johan Bornman]

Cut cut cut cut...

 

BUT' date=' can / should one oil the nipples every so often? In order to ensure that they do not seize with time and can be worked on after a year or several 1000's of km later?

 

What preventative maintenace can you suggest when cleaning the bike i.e wash the wheels?

 

 

[/quote']

 

 

When you build the wheel, you use a thick, high-pressure oil such as 80W90 hypoid gear oil. You liberally oil the spoke holes and the spoke threads. This stuff seems to never wash out and wheels can be trued years after without any problems.

 

Whether it will still penetrate after the build, I doubt. But, worth a try though. I've found that when I work on an un-oiled wheel, the nipples are stiff and they don't improve with external oiling at all. Only once I've got them loose does oil seem to penetrate.

 

I'd say the best maintenance is a good clean every now and then. Mud gets into the spoke threads though muddy water. The water evaporates and leaves the mud behind. If you can clean the wheels well, I think the muddy water will be washed out.

 

The average guy can't do more than that. I won't recommend fiddling with the nipples to keep them loose. An untrained person will make a mess of the wheel.

 

It is almost certain that wheels with alu nipples will need a few spokes cut when the wheel is trued. Brass nipples that have beel oiled just about never give problems.

 

 

[brussel]

JB I add to splats question a second one I also have 819's. What other rim options does one have with tubeless?

[Johan Bornman]

JB' date=' I have wheels with 819 rims.

 

How do I clean them so that they don't get gunked up?

 

As far as I am aware, the nipples and collars were installed with an anti seize agent of sorts and not oil (or loctite for that matter).

[/quote']

 

I don't know why on earth you would use loctite on those components. Mavic recommends you put threadlocker on the collars but I can't see why. They never come loose if you have enough spoke tension.

 

As for nipples with loctite, that's just criminal.

 

I honestly don't know what you can do in terms of preventative maintenance. It's a crappy design made for storing dirt and water. I'll just brush all the crud out each time I wash the bike and maybe spray some Q20 in there from time to time.

 

More often than not the nipples and rim has to be scrapped when all that's required is a minor truing. On disc rims I suggest the customer puts up with a small wobble but on rim brake rims, that's not acceptable.

 

The original point I wanted to make is that sometimes a simple operation does require a lot of component replacement that doesn't seem right to the layman.

 

 

[NotSoBigBen]

JB would you agree that budgetary constraints sometimes means doing the best you got with what you got ..... even with the knowledge that it may only be a short term fix?

 

The problem of course is if even with that understanding the customer then complains when it fails after the said 'short term'! Now that's a different story .......

[droo]

So many double entendres in that one post, I'm not even going to start

[NotSoBigBen]

So many double entendres in that one post' date=' I'm not even going to start [/quote']

 

Sorry sir

 

Entrees - aren't vat wot you eat before you eat or somefink?

 

next time I go with a pretend narrative aka:-

 

BB - So JB

JB - Yes ben

BB - Do you agree

JB - uuuhhhhmmmm

BB - if you have a limited budget

JB - aha

 

Blah-de blah-de blah