Why Titanium Full-Susser?

[Tieffels]

 

Have to say it is very easy on the eye.. Toned down finishes will get my vote any day.

 

General question thought: Is this the suspension setup that the XC market is converging to? Seems more and more frames have this general layout.

[Titanium Rocket]

Hell hath no fury like JB on a pet-hate bike topic. (Remember his diatribe on the poor Park Tool chain measuring device?wow.) <?: prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

 

This time sir, I?m not sure you?ve got it all right. Do some Google time and research the physical properties and characteristics of titanium alloys versus traditional aluminium alloys, for application in bike frame construction. There are some very credible references there that contest some of the assertions you make, based on fact and not opinion.

 

In the latest What Mountain Bike magazine, 2 out of 3 of their top-rated hardtails (in the >?3000 category) are titanium, and 1 out of 3 of their top-rated long fork hardtails is titanium. In a recent copy (trying to find it?), they reviewed one particular titanium bike and suggested that it could be the best hardtail they have ever tested. These guys have tested hundreds of bikes in the last decade; they are objective and have their integrity to protect, with nothing to gain from biased or subjective opinions. 

 

You are of course entitled to your view, but your statement that titanium ??is wholly unsuitable and inappropriate for any bike frame?? is as thin as the marketing department hype that you also reprimand. I trust then, that you support the view that the same marketing bullsh*t is largely responsible for fads like dual suspension and 29? wheels? The benefits of these technologies are promoted more on huge marketing budgets, than proven scientific fact.

 

As for me, I have a titanium hardtail that I bought in <?: prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Beijing 6 years ago. It has done 34 000 km to date, including 3 Cape Epics and all the supporting training. Superb craftmanship, no cracks in 6 years, I love the ride as do most of my mates, and no reason to consider changing it for some other bling junk.

 

No malice intended JB; it?s good to have so many opinions and healthy debate on this forum. And after all, someone once said ?It?s not about the bike??

[Johan Bornman]

Hell hath no fury like JB on a pet-hate bike topic. (Remember his diatribe on the poor Park Tool chain measuring device?wow.) <?: prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

 

This time sir' date=' I?m not sure you?ve got it all right. Do some Google time and research the physical properties and characteristics of titanium alloys versus traditional aluminium alloys, for application in bike frame construction. There are some very credible references there that contest some of the assertions you make, based on fact and not opinion.

 

In the latest What Mountain Bike magazine, 2 out of 3 of their top-rated hardtails (in the >?3000 category) are titanium, and 1 out of 3 of their top-rated long fork hardtails is titanium. In a recent copy (trying to find it?), they reviewed one particular titanium bike and suggested that it could be the best hardtail they have ever tested. These guys have tested hundreds of bikes in the last decade; they are objective and have their integrity to protect, with nothing to gain from biased or subjective opinions. 

 

You are of course entitled to your view, but your statement that titanium ??is wholly unsuitable and inappropriate for any bike frame?? is as thin as the marketing department hype that you also reprimand. I trust then, that you support the view that the same marketing bullsh*t is largely responsible for fads like dual suspension and 29? wheels? The benefits of these technologies are promoted more on huge marketing budgets, than proven scientific fact.

 

As for me, I have a titanium hardtail that I bought in <?: prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Beijing 6 years ago. It has done 34 000 km to date, including 3 Cape Epics and all the supporting training. Superb craftmanship, no cracks in 6 years, I love the ride as do most of my mates, and no reason to consider changing it for some other bling junk.

 

No malice intended JB; it?s good to have so many opinions and healthy debate on this forum. And after all, someone once said ?It?s not about the bike??

[/quote']

 

No malice intended you say, but referring to me in the third person and to "his diatribe" is pretty malicious. But that is just my opinion.

 

 

Even futher, why confuse this argument with other debates. Are you trying to discredit me overall so that your single unsubstantiated point looks better?

 

When are you going to stop beating your wife?

Why whould I do Google when I have the text books and material handbooks at hand?

 

What makes the Park chain measuring tool "poor" other than it is rubbish and founded on flawed engineering as so clearly elucidated in that particular debate?

 

When are you going to fit a legal number plate to your car?

 

What makes Whatever Mountain Bike so authoratitive? Have they ever quantified any of the properties of the frames they test? Have they even come back four years later and re-reviewed the bikes to see how they held up?

 

Stop abusing animals like that.

 

Which physical properties would you like me to compare? Tensile strength, fatigue limits? Density?

 

Have you even tried to take on any one specific point and debate that ?

 

What makes you think an Epic is any toughter on a bike than any other gravel road ride of equal distance? Why even mention Epic?

 

Where did 29-inch wheel or dual suspension (as a trend) even get into the debate. We were debating frame materials.

 

Why are you so grumpy that your kids shy away from you?

 

Did you even notice that I differentiated between opinion (my view) and the factual bits? Did you hear that whooosh sound overhead?

 

Thank you for reminding me that I'm entitled to my view. I forgot that for a minute.

 

What exactly is your view? Can you try and put it across in a few bullet points without all the frills and blustering?

 

Of course-the-top hardtails in the extra expensive class are titanium. What other over-the-top expensive materials are there? Boron? Pure Scandium?

 

Bike Magazines are notoriously weak on science and engineering. Are you telling us we should take those things as gospel?

 

Do you really think they write without any bias?

 

What in your opinion makes a great frame? List 20 bullet points.

 

Stop driving over the speed limit.

 

Do you also have a titanium watch?

 

Please point out the assertions I make and those credible references of yours that contradict them.

 

*************

 

Do you still want to play the silly shotgun-accuse-and-spray-drivel debate or would you like to participate and debate?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Johan Bornman2009-11-13 08:49:28

[JPW#]

I think the question was why? My answer is simple,  after years of use your frame still looks kinda like the day you bought it. The other frames, ..... they look like scratch heaven.

JPW#2009-11-13 08:47:15

[GoLefty!!]

hey easy on the Ti watches...

I have a Titanium watch, a Seiko in fact. what a beauty and so light compared to my steel Fossil.

 

design, people, design is what makes a bike wonderful whether its made of tin foil, lego, bamboo, recycled broomsticks, recycles bone pins or space shuttle carbon.

 

If its a poo design it will ride poo.

 

Titanium makes a wonderfully artistic looking machine, but so can chrome molybdenum steel or aluminium alloy. The jury is out on carbon fibre though, Tupperware is just not really to my taste even though I have a few of them.

I do miss the wonderful metallic lustre of titanium

 

[NinjaManiak]

edit ... edit ...
 

What makes the Park chain measuring tool "poor" other than it is rubbish and founded on flawed engineering as so clearly elucidated in that particular debate?

 

edit ... edit ...

 

 

 

I wouldn't call it rubbish. It's inaccurate, but at least it's consistent.

Now if it were made of chocolate, then i'd agree. Then again, why not make it out of titanium, with the catch phraze "Wronger for Longer"

[vanniri]

There was a test run last year where a bunch of riders were handed "un-branded" frames and asked to test them for comfort and quickness and a few other things. All the bikes were set up with the same components. At the end of the test period' date=' there was no consensus between the riders as too which bike was the fastest or the strongest. The only category that had a clear leader was the comfort one, and a steel bike won, with titanium 2nd, then carbon and lastly alu. But at the end of the day the data was judged to have been far too close to be able to say that "this one is better than that one", tire pressure made more difference than frames did. All that could be concluded from the test was that every rider out there had their own ideas as to what constituted a good ride, it was all relative to the strength and experience of the individual riders. I personally would go even further and say that 90% of riders wouldn't be able to tell one frame from another.
[/quote']

 

 

Maybe you guys just aint experienced but I can not only name the material of a bike I have riden, I can also name the brand, model and year - all that blind folded!

 

At the same time I have the template to taste the difference between a ?99 Shiraz and a ?01 and my auditory skills allows me to differentiate between nickel, copper and gold plated hi-fi inter-connection cables.

 

An Audi is also a better car than a BMW

vanniri2009-11-13 11:49:48

[Christie]

 

The biggest advantage Ti has over other frame materials imo is that is the most expensive.

 

If it cost the same as alu, it would not be a very commonly used material - too many warranty claims due to weld failures for mass market bikes, and too cheap for boutique brands. It would never be sold unpainted, people would think that the dull grey natural finish looks cheap.

 

The premium some well-off folks pay is for exclusivity. And exclusivity is probably what they get, so fair enough.

 

Only problem is when these folks (or the local importers of Ti frames) try to justify the expense by saying it is better. It is not a better frame material than carbon composite or aluminium, full stop. Ti, by itself, does not give the frame any special qualities - these qualities are a function of frame design - the same manufacturer could probably replicate those qualities in alu or steel if they wanted to, at a slightly different mass.

 

But it is impossible to convince an importer or proud owner that the R50k Ti frame  is not "the best", regardless of technical specs. Their argument would simply be "it is 2x the price of most other frames, it has to be the best". That same argument sells bikes with bamboo frames, too.  

Christie2009-11-13 13:56:30

[EigerSA]

 

There was a test run last year where a bunch of riders were handed "un-branded" frames and asked to test them for comfort and quickness and a few other things. All the bikes were set up with the same components. At the end of the test period' date=' there was no consensus between the riders as too which bike was the fastest or the strongest. The only category that had a clear leader was the comfort one, and a steel bike won, with titanium 2nd, then carbon and lastly alu. But at the end of the day the data was judged to have been far too close to be able to say that "this one is better than that one", tire pressure made more difference than frames did. All that could be concluded from the test was that every rider out there had their own ideas as to what constituted a good ride, it was all relative to the strength and experience of the individual riders. I personally would go even further and say that 90% of riders wouldn't be able to tell one frame from another.

[/quote']

 

 

Maybe you guys just aint experienced but I can not only name the material of a bike I have riden, I can also name the brand, model and year - all that blind folded! - No you can't.

 

At the same time I have the template to taste the difference between a ?99 Shiraz and a ?01 and my auditory skills allows me to differentiate between nickel, copper and gold plated hi-fi inter-connection cables.

 

An Audi is also a better car than a BMW - Yes it is.

 

 

 

[Goodbadugly]

A matter of want and need. Why would you buy a titanium watch? Because you want one and can afford it. Why do women prefer big diamonds? Because they want it. Why golden jewelery? Because it looks nicer than stainless steel. And is more expensive.

A few possible answers for titanium:

-For the IMAGE.

-The idea of longevity.

-"You have arrived"

-Spoiling yourself.

-In search of the Holy grail or the Kruger millions.

-Don't want to be "common"

-A small uhmm... whatever.

(Note that the word better did not feature.)

Tire pressure, frame design and set up plays the biggest role.

I drive a Toyota. So does my wife. We ride aluminum.   

[JPW#]

JD power.

 

1Subaru

2Honda

 

Don't trust in allah because mohamed's youngest wife was 9 years old.

JPW#2009-11-15 05:40:35