Tankman Posted February 15, 2011 Posted February 15, 2011 I'm the first one to complain about the untransparent seedings, but its definitely possible to move up. I've only been riding seriously for about 18 months and I've moved up from M in spring 2009 to E now, without any cheating, just hard work. I'll probably get whacked this weekend in E, but looking forward to it! If the seedings were too lenient, everybody would be riding A-D by the end of the season and there would be nobody left in the lower letters.... It is possible to move up in the alphabet, the higher up the more difficult it seems to become to get to the next letter. What I dont understand is how the calulate the "adjusted winners time"?Headhunter queried this and got a reply to the effect of "This is the time the Giro riders would have done the race in" while there were actually Giro riders in the finishing group! This is a perfect example, here we have an international rider/giro rider/current fastest man in SA/SA Champ - crossing the line less than a second (probably milliseconds) slower than the winner and he is awarded a B seeding. If he gets a B, the how the hell will anyone get ever an A? Do you have to out sprint Cavendish or who?
Lucky Luke. Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 It is possible to move up in the alphabet, the higher up the more difficult it seems to become to get to the next letter. What I dont understand is how the calulate the "adjusted winners time"?Headhunter queried this and got a reply to the effect of "This is the time the Giro riders would have done the race in" while there were actually Giro riders in the finishing group! This is a perfect example, here we have an international rider/giro rider/current fastest man in SA/SA Champ - crossing the line less than a second (probably milliseconds) slower than the winner and he is awarded a B seeding. If he gets a B, the how the hell will anyone get ever an A? Do you have to out sprint Cavendish or who? The Giro line is crap. PPA are on a mission to purge A and B group. For some reason they feel they have too many riders in there and they see this as a problem in light of Cat 1 being too big.
andydude Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 I wonder if I'll ever be able to beat that ghost Giro rider always winning by a margin of a few minutes The formula (from PPA's website) for your Seeding index = (Rider time / Adjusted winning time - 1) / Beta * 100 We get the Seeding Index, Rider Time and the Adjusted winning time therefor the only thing to work out is the Beta. For the 99er mine was 0.910115 (which apparently is different for each rider!). They then penalise you twice, (a) adjusting the winner's time for the ghost Giro rider and (B) adjusting the Beta for the difficulty of the course. As I've said - I think it is fair as long as they only use this method. But they are also still using previous years' methods. The old seedings will take a while to work out the system. I guess (as mentioned), we just want transparency and consistency! Sounds so easy when I type it, but there is a thing called life which is everything but
Spat Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 I'm the first one to complain about the untransparent seedings, but its definitely possible to move up. I've only been riding seriously for about 18 months and I've moved up from M in spring 2009 to E now, without any cheating, just hard work. I'll probably get whacked this weekend in E, but looking forward to it! If the seedings were too lenient, everybody would be riding A-D by the end of the season and there would be nobody left in the lower letters.... Inspiring Bram as I can relate also started this season in M and with hard work have been going up slowly, hopefully I can replicate your sucess and fidn myself in E next year, that would be great. I do notice that it is getting harder for the guys to move up the ladder though, and I know of a few guys that are in the groups they are in because of last years results. In my experience I see myself improving dramatically since last year on my race times but at the same time I think the winning groups this season seem to be much stronger than last year as well heard that there are some very strong juniors this year. Obviously the adjusted winning times is also always an aspect that is a bit of a wildcard
Thor Buttox Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 I wonder if I'll ever be able to beat that ghost Giro rider always winning by a margin of a few minutes The formula (from PPA's website) for your Seeding index = (Rider time / Adjusted winning time - 1) / Beta * 100 We get the Seeding Index, Rider Time and the Adjusted winning time therefor the only thing to work out is the Beta. For the 99er mine was 0.910115 (which apparently is different for each rider!). They then penalise you twice, (a) adjusting the winner's time for the ghost Giro rider and (B) adjusting the Beta for the difficulty of the course. As I've said - I think it is fair as long as they only use this method. But they are also still using previous years' methods. The old seedings will take a while to work out the system. I guess (as mentioned), we just want transparency and consistency! Sounds so easy when I type it, but there is a thing called life which is everything but Is this why if i divide my time by the Ghost time I don't get the seeding %?
MTB_Roadie Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 I went from X to K (should stil fetch my J number) in less than a year by hard work aswell, however I noticed if people work together in groups lets say about 6..then those 6 will climb easier to a better seeding @ Spat Also regarding the juniors, they spend like +-80km during the week in the saddle every day as they don't work or anything, just cycle or some study and cycle...so i actually think we doing well even tho we have to work a 8-5 day
Spat Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 I went from X to K (should stil fetch my J number) in less than a year by hard work aswell, however I noticed if people work together in groups lets say about 6..then those 6 will climb easier to a better seeding @ Spat Also regarding the juniors, they spend like +-80km during the week in the saddle every day as they don't work or anything, just cycle or some study and cycle...so i actually think we doing well even tho we have to work a 8-5 day Agreed, juggling the normal work load and still climbing the ladder means we putting in decent effort. I dont think I could have put anymore effort in, think that have to realise that time also plays a role, and by putting in the same effort from here we will build on what have gained this year so yip looking forward to the offseaon to try the MTB side out and hopefully will come back stronger when starts again.
andydude Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 Is this why if i divide my time by the Ghost time I don't get the seeding %? Yes... Ghost time AND Beta penalty!
'Dale Posted February 17, 2011 Author Posted February 17, 2011 Hmmm...If groups organise those pacelines from the start, then they can creep closer to the ghost rider.But how to mobilise the hearts and minds of those dudes and dudettes in the start chute... Hmmmm
orbeaorca Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 Current SA champ gets a fine B seeding of 6.3 % for the 99er B is from 4.5 to 9%. So the winners of Burger and 99'er both only good enough for a B. I think the delta they used for the race is 0.93 ... Argus is 1, so 99er is considered 7% easier. PPA really trying to thin out the CAT1 and CAT2 bunches, but they are clobbering some of us who have trained really hard to try and race Vets for example. I cant qualify even though I came 16th in my age group for example, having started in A. My 3:04 gives me a G seeding. i worked my time backwards for last years 99er and last year delta/beta was 1.0 vs 0.91 for this year that i calculated. i dont mind the ghostrider time increase because if you look at the number of guys who came in under 3h11 in 2009 then it is about 275 and for 2011 it is about 350. The increase in ghostrider time balances this. So if delta was left at one then for my 318 this year i would get 29.4 which is would be similar to my 29 for my 327 last year. But somehow they figured the same course got easier.it does not make sense. The ghostrider time compensates for the weather on the day. Maybe they found AB teleporter at the foot of vissers that transport u to the top of odendaal.
Tankman Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 If groups organise those pacelines from the start, then they can creep closer to the ghost rider. no matter how fast you go you are never going to catch that ghost rider, not even our current fastest man in SA could catch him!
bikemonster Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 Hmmm...If groups organise those pacelines from the start, then they can creep closer to the ghost rider.But how to mobilise the hearts and minds of those dudes and dudettes in the start chute... Hmmmm This won't work - think about it: if everybody gets faster, then the seedings must remain the same. Seeding is relative, not absolute.
'Dale Posted February 18, 2011 Author Posted February 18, 2011 This won't work - think about it: if everybody gets faster, then the seedings must remain the same. Seeding is relative, not absolute.You're right, bikemonster... [if my bunch can work together, we can kick some ghost rider ass and bump up our seedings - it takes 10 riders to form a lekka paceline that can outrun the average Joe dude wheelsucker punk] Create my own team in my bunch... Pay them a small stipend or R50 per rider per race and a free coke at the end.Hmmm...
niklasvm Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 last year I used to alway start 1 or 2 groups down and we'd still catch groups in front of us. I think at the moment there's very little time separating people that ride from group F - I for instance. The only (semi) positive thing about not being able to move up easily is everyone is affected the same. So you will be getting stronger with everyone else you usually race with. There's a good chance if one of you gets a better seeding then all of you will. Then you'll move up a letter and still be riding with similar people.
Spat Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 last year I used to alway start 1 or 2 groups down and we'd still catch groups in front of us. I think at the moment there's very little time separating people that ride from group F - I for instance. The only (semi) positive thing about not being able to move up easily is everyone is affected the same. So you will be getting stronger with everyone else you usually race with. There's a good chance if one of you gets a better seeding then all of you will. Then you'll move up a letter and still be riding with similar people. This has been my experience
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