Tip: Strength doesn?t equal power

[bruce]

Ok' date=' now plain Pofadder inglish please.

If I sit and "grind" (AVE) at say 80% h/r (+- 175bpm), cadence about 80, for 4-5 HOURS,

Do I now work on :
(1) POWER
(2) STRENGTH
(3) ENDURANCE
(4) None above, I'm wasting my time.[/quote']

 

http://home.earthlink.net/~acoggan/misc/id4.html

 

I know this link is not in plain pofadder inglish, but essentially what it is saying is that you never work on Strength with you are riding a bike.

 

When you get fitter, you are able to either produce more power for the same amount of time, or you are able to produce the same amount of power for a longer period of time.

 

So, when you are riding 4-5 hours, you are actually improving both power and endurance, because you are getting fitter (unless of course you usually ride 8-10 hours which means 4-5 hours is less than what you normally do)

 

Whether or not 4-5hours at 80% MaxHR is the most efficient way to train is a separate debate, but you will be getting fitter.

 

[Brakkies Sport Fotos]

Bikemax, So, In you opinion.

 

 

 

I'm doing the miles, but I need to put more in and try stay above 80%

 

 

 

Then my funrides (as I currently do) @ about 90% is the aerobic fitness parts

 

 

 

So a typical weekend looked like that pic above ( it was saturday's training on the mtb)

 

 

 

And past sunday I did the WCX-Press :

 

 

 

[Marius]

Pops, if you are doing all the riding I have no idea how you are recovering so fast from each ride, are you even recovered most of the time?? I'm just thinking if it's even possible to get fitter if you are over reaching?

[BikeMax]

 

Bikemax' date=' So, In you opinion.

 

 

 

I'm doing the miles, but I need to put more in and try stay above 80%

 

 

 

Then my funrides (as I currently do) @ about 90% is the aerobic fitness parts

 

 

 

So a typical weekend looked like that pic above ( it was saturday's training on the mtb)

 

 

 

And past sunday I did the WCX-Press :

 

 

 

[/quote']

 

Pops - it is a balance between longer moderate rides to get the volume (4-6 hours) at weekends (could include a race and then some more) and shorter 90 in to 2 hour tempo type rides that are going to be a little harder due to the reduced volume. Just avoid junk miles and you will be doing ok.

 

[FanieFiets]

 

Pops' date=' if you are doing all the riding I have no idea how you are recovering so fast from each ride, are you even recovered most of the time?? I'm just thinking if it's even possible to get fitter if you are over reaching?[/quote']

 

He is a piece of biltong and doesnt need recovery!

 

[Jean-Jay]

 

This is very interesting. I have struggled with this concept almost all my life.

I tend to carry alot more muscle than your average rider and i have always felt this to be a vulnerability of mine rather than a weapon.

 

I really struggle to ride easy gears at high cadence, i just can't. My legs tend to start burning with lactic acid very early on. Now i don't know if i am genetically challenged in this department and my body is just not economical at disposing of lactic acid.

 

I also train at very high intensity and reasonably consistently. I have noticed that races with many repetative climbs in it (but climbs longer than 5 mins) i start to struggle after about 40 mins of racing. My muscles just cannot recover from riding them. The climbs have to be over 5 mins in duration though. Anything shorter is ok.

 

I gather i have fast twitch muscle fibres, i can tell by how bulky they are, am i right to assume that even at my best, i will never be able to challenge a person with slow twitch muscle fibres of equal fitness in races with serious climbing in it?

 

 

 

tooHot!!!!2007-11-01 00:50:59

[BikeMax]

 

Pops' date=' if you are doing all the riding I have no idea how you are recovering so fast from each ride, are you even recovered most of the time?? I'm just thinking if it's even possible to get fitter if you are over reaching?[/quote']

 

Over reaching is a requirement of getting fitter - if you don't increase the load then fitness will plateau.

 

Building fitness is a constant process of carefully managed over reaching and then recovery and getting stronger (Before you over reach again)

 

[Brakkies Sport Fotos]

so, my training hours a week is +- 15. its not that much.

 

 

 

thats why I do the 5hours on Saturday at 70% , and I also knew the next day was the West Coast X-Press.

 

 

 

to ride at 70% is not that hard a effort, I knew the next day would ne balls to the wall 90% +

 

 

 

I think it was a good well balanced training weekend .

 

 

 

I did my endurance, power and FTP in those 2 days?

 

 

 

is that correct?

 

 

 

and lastly, I always drink the USN Recovery Max after each ride, training or racing. And after my long rides, the 4-6 hour one, I will also drink a tablespoon of Bicarb of Soda with 300ml cold water.

 

 

 

The racehorse owner give bicarb of soda to their horses to get rid of lactic acid faster.

 

 

 

It works, I promise youpopeye2007-11-01 01:03:48

[bruce]

This is very interesting. I have struggled with this concept almost all my life.
I tend to carry alot more muscle than your average rider and i have always felt this to be a vulnerability of mine rather than a weapon.

I really struggle to ride easy gears at high cadence' date=' i just can't. My legs tend to start burning with lactic acid very early on. Now i don't know if i am genetically challenged in this department and my body is just not economical at disposing of lactic acid.

I also train at very high intensity and reasonably consistently. I have noticed that races with many repetative climbs in it (but climbs longer than 5 mins) i start to struggle after about 40 mins of racing. My muscles just cannot recover from riding them. The climbs have to be over 5 mins in duration though. Anything shorter is ok.

I gather i have fast twitch muscle fibres, i can tell by how bulky they are, am i right to assume that even at my best, i will never be able to challenge a person with slow twitch muscle fibres of equal fitness in races with serious climbing in it?


[/quote']

 

Riders with a higher percentage of fast twitch/slow twitch typically do have larger muscles.

 

Generally the higher the percentage of slow twitch fibers the better suited your muscles are to endurance type events.  Slow twitch fibres do not produce as much force as fast twitch, but they do not fatigue as quickly.

 

Higher cadence/spinning recruits more slow twitch fibres than low cadence/grinding.  You may well find that you are trying to ride at too high a cadence, and hence targeting your slow twitch fibres which you have less of - hence you fatigue quicker.

 

High cadence spinning suits riders with a greater percentage of slow twitch, because their is less force (torque) per repetition.

bruce2007-11-01 00:59:09

[BikeMax]

 

This is very interesting. I have struggled with this concept almost all my life.

I tend to carry alot more muscle than your average rider and i have always felt this to be a vulnerability of mine rather than a weapon.

 

I really struggle to ride easy gears at high cadence' date=' i just can't. My legs tend to start burning with lactic acid very early on. Now i don't know if i am genetically challenged in this department and my body is just not economical at disposing of lactic acid.

 

I also train at very high intensity and reasonably consistently. I have noticed that races with many repetative climbs in it (but climbs longer than 5 mins) i start to struggle after about 40 mins of racing. My muscles just cannot recover from riding them. The climbs have to be over 5 mins in duration though. Anything shorter is ok.

 

I gather i have fast twitch muscle fibres, i can tell by how bulky they are, am i right to assume that even at my best, i will never be able to challenge a person with slow twitch muscle fibres of equal fitness in races with serious climbing in it?

 

 

[/quote']

 

Riders with a higher percentage of fast twitch/slow twitch typically do have larger muscles.

 

Generally the higher the percentage of slow twitch fibers the better suited your muscles are to endurance type events.  Slow twitch fibres do not produce as much force as fast twitch, but they do not fatigue as quickly.

 

Higher cadence/spinning recruits more slow twitch fibres than low cadence/grinding.  You may well find that you are trying to ride at too high a cadence, and hence targeting your slow twitch fibres which you have less of - hence you fatigue quicker.

 

High cadence spinning suits riders with a greater percentage of slow twitch, because their is less force (torque) per repetition.

 

To add to what Bruce has already said - you may have more fast twitch fibres than some, and although this may make you less ideally suited to endurance events, it does not necessarily mean you are handicapped. If you build your aerobic fitness with the right training then you will find that your fast twitch make up can be a big advantage in road racing. There are many slow twitchers who never win a race because although they are always there at the end, they have no explosiveness and cannot win.

 

[Jean-Jay]

 

This is very interesting. I have struggled with this concept almost all my life.

I tend to carry alot more muscle than your average rider and i have always felt this to be a vulnerability of mine rather than a weapon.

 

I really struggle to ride easy gears at high cadence' date=' i just can't. My legs tend to start burning with lactic acid very early on. Now i don't know if i am genetically challenged in this department and my body is just not economical at disposing of lactic acid.

 

I also train at very high intensity and reasonably consistently. I have noticed that races with many repetative climbs in it (but climbs longer than 5 mins) i start to struggle after about 40 mins of racing. My muscles just cannot recover from riding them. The climbs have to be over 5 mins in duration though. Anything shorter is ok.

 

I gather i have fast twitch muscle fibres, i can tell by how bulky they are, am i right to assume that even at my best, i will never be able to challenge a person with slow twitch muscle fibres of equal fitness in races with serious climbing in it?

 

 

[/quote']

 

Riders with a higher percentage of fast twitch/slow twitch typically do have larger muscles.

 

Generally the higher the percentage of slow twitch fibers the better suited your muscles are to endurance type events.  Slow twitch fibres do not produce as much force as fast twitch, but they do not fatigue as quickly.

 

Higher cadence/spinning recruits more slow twitch fibres than low cadence/grinding.  You may well find that you are trying to ride at too high a cadence, and hence targeting your slow twitch fibres which you have less of - hence you fatigue quicker.

 

High cadence spinning suits riders with a greater percentage of slow twitch, because their is less force (torque) per repetition.

 

Thanks Bruce, so where to from here.

 

The difficult thing for me to admit is where my limitations are and how cleverly to address them.

 

So possibly the best route for to take is push the big gears which i am used to and to stop trying to ride the easier gears. I am going to fatigue on a hilly course anyway, i may as well do it on my own terms

 

Is there a way for riders with fast twitch muscle fibres to be there at the end of a hilly race with rider with slow twicth muscles of equal fitness?

 

[CaptainDura]

so' date=' my training hours a week is +- 15. its not that much.
[/quote']

 

Damn thats a lot of hours.   I average 5.30 hours per week over the last 4 months.

 

I did the WCXpress in 2:27.   Does this mean if I want to also do a 2:10 I am going to have to do more than double the amount of weekly hours do gain 15 minutes ?

 

Or can I just train smarter and maybe do like 8-9 hours. 

 

In terms of time on the bike it seems a waste to do almost 3 times as many hours for only 15minutes better time.

 

What do you guys think?

[Marius]

I think Less is More CaptainDura, 7-8hours should be more than enough and training at mostly Thereshold and Tempo would be your best bet with enough recovery afterwoods.

[bruce]

This is very interesting. I have struggled with this concept almost all my life.
I tend to carry alot more muscle than your average rider and i have always felt this to be a vulnerability of mine rather than a weapon.

I really struggle to ride easy gears at high cadence' date=' i just can't. My legs tend to start burning with lactic acid very early on. Now i don't know if i am genetically challenged in this department and my body is just not economical at disposing of lactic acid.

I also train at very high intensity and reasonably consistently. I have noticed that races with many repetative climbs in it (but climbs longer than 5 mins) i start to struggle after about 40 mins of racing. My muscles just cannot recover from riding them. The climbs have to be over 5 mins in duration though. Anything shorter is ok.

I gather i have fast twitch muscle fibres, i can tell by how bulky they are, am i right to assume that even at my best, i will never be able to challenge a person with slow twitch muscle fibres of equal fitness in races with serious climbing in it?


[/quote']

 

Riders with a higher percentage of fast twitch/slow twitch typically do have larger muscles.

 

Generally the higher the percentage of slow twitch fibers the better suited your muscles are to endurance type events.  Slow twitch fibres do not produce as much force as fast twitch, but they do not fatigue as quickly.

 

Higher cadence/spinning recruits more slow twitch fibres than low cadence/grinding.  You may well find that you are trying to ride at too high a cadence, and hence targeting your slow twitch fibres which you have less of - hence you fatigue quicker.

 

High cadence spinning suits riders with a greater percentage of slow twitch, because their is less force (torque) per repetition.

Thanks Bruce, so where to from here.

The difficult thing for me to admit is where my limitations are and how cleverly to address them.

So possibly the best route for to take is push the big gears which i am used to and to stop trying to ride the easier gears. I am going to fatigue on a hilly course anyway, i may as well do it on my own terms

Is there a way for riders with fast twitch muscle fibres to be there at the end of a hilly race with rider with slow twicth muscles of equal fitness?

 

Firstly, train and race at the cadence you are most comfortable with!

 

Secondly, there are actually three types of muscle fibre - Type I, Type IIa, and Type IIb.  The Type IIa's generally adapt to the type of event you are training - so, if you do endurance training, these fibres will generally become more like Type I (slow twitch), whereas if you were to do weight training these fibres would generally become more like Type IIb (fast twitch).

 

Fortunately, in S.A. we actually don't have very long climbs - so being a bit more of a fast twitcher you can get away with it, because you can have good 5minute  and 1 minute power that is required for the climbs that we do - i.e. good anaerobic power will get you through these - too many of them and you are going to have problems.

 

But, train your 60minute power plenty and you will optomise the Type I and Type IIa that you do have to enable you to stay with the bunch - then kill them in the sprint

[Brakkies Sport Fotos]

Dont think you need to "train" smarter, maybe just "race" smarter.

 

 

 

Depends in which group you start, If it to low, you do the work, if its "ONE" above your abbility, just race smart, slip and stay away from the front, make sure you donr sit on a deadwheel, (you will see who leave gaps the whole time), go around and sit infront of that guy.

 

 

 

I'm not training to ride a funride in a spesific time, what I do on the day is important, how much work I do, is more important than the time .. for me...

[Jean-Jay]

 

This is very interesting. I have struggled with this concept almost all my life.

I tend to carry alot more muscle than your average rider and i have always felt this to be a vulnerability of mine rather than a weapon.

 

I really struggle to ride easy gears at high cadence' date=' i just can't. My legs tend to start burning with lactic acid very early on. Now i don't know if i am genetically challenged in this department and my body is just not economical at disposing of lactic acid.

 

I also train at very high intensity and reasonably consistently. I have noticed that races with many repetative climbs in it (but climbs longer than 5 mins) i start to struggle after about 40 mins of racing. My muscles just cannot recover from riding them. The climbs have to be over 5 mins in duration though. Anything shorter is ok.

 

I gather i have fast twitch muscle fibres, i can tell by how bulky they are, am i right to assume that even at my best, i will never be able to challenge a person with slow twitch muscle fibres of equal fitness in races with serious climbing in it?

 

 

[/quote']

 

Riders with a higher percentage of fast twitch/slow twitch typically do have larger muscles.

 

Generally the higher the percentage of slow twitch fibers the better suited your muscles are to endurance type events.  Slow twitch fibres do not produce as much force as fast twitch, but they do not fatigue as quickly.

 

Higher cadence/spinning recruits more slow twitch fibres than low cadence/grinding.  You may well find that you are trying to ride at too high a cadence, and hence targeting your slow twitch fibres which you have less of - hence you fatigue quicker.

 

High cadence spinning suits riders with a greater percentage of slow twitch, because their is less force (torque) per repetition.

 

To add to what Bruce has already said - you may have more fast twitch fibres than some, and although this may make you less ideally suited to endurance events, it does not necessarily mean you are handicapped. If you build your aerobic fitness with the right training then you will find that your fast twitch make up can be a big advantage in road racing. There are many slow twitchers who never win a race because although they are always there at the end, they have no explosiveness and cannot win.

 

Thanks BikeMax.

 

I know that when i trained at BikeMax my riding improved significantly. I was able to recover though an endurance event and still be there at then end more times than i have in recent years.

 

It's difficult to be there at the end on courses like that for me at the moment. Even when at my best it is not easy. Usually i am quite a bit behind and happy to make chase bunch in the legues when racing with you guys.

 

On a moderately hard course (rolling in nature) it is a different kettle of fish. There i can almost always garauntee that i will be there at the end and most of the time i am able to contest a finish even if i choose not to.

 

Should i cut my losses and hone my strength even more, resign myself to being an average rider in the mountains and try to be brilliant in rolling to flat races? or should i try to climb better?

 

I am just worried that i may have reached my threshold at climbing and being at the age i am, it would be near impossible to improve in leaps and bounds on hills considering not being able to ride many hours a day? in other words i would be wasting my time. I think that to be able to climb as fast as Dave Garret and others would be impossible even stupid for me to try, maybe i should concentrate at racing my strengths and just hope that PPA stop sending races over too many climbs